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The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

kiwihellenist.blogspot.com

241–250 of 298 posts

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume most everyone here on their free and unpaid time is here for entertainment purposes. Why waste time reading an article if the title already provides enough entertainment for a creative dialog?

I'm not going to pretend that I read the article every time. But if I'm going to point out something I think the article is missing or accuse the title of being false, yeah I'll check the article first.

Thanks, this is indeed all I'm looking for.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#242
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of Christ's teaching is that rich or poor, no one is deserving. It's only by admitting one's sinfulness and inadequacy and turning from it to instead accept God's mercy and gift of Christ that anyone can be saved.

Exactly. This is quite a radical departure from the fire and brimstone found in the Old Testament.

I guess that most applies to the Prophets, who were warning a sinful nation of impending destruction, but it still seems like an oversimplistic view of the scriptures. Even in the Prophets, God's love and mercy are emphasized many times.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#243
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OT references aren't vague, but due to the idea of the new covenant, they likely apply as much as the OT prohibitions against touching pig leather or touching a menstruating woman. The only treatment of homosexuality in the NT comes from Paul, and the Greek word he uses for the receiving partner is specifically the word for an underage male slave kept for sexual purposes, so it's unclear how applicable it is to m…

> the Greek word he uses for the receiving partner is specifically the word for an underage male slave kept for sexual purposes, I've seen this making the rounds on TikTok and it is absolutely untrue. What I find unsettling about this is the people who originally made this claim (not the ones unknowingly spreading it) had to have been deliberately dishonest. It's very easy to verify this for yourself - Greek and Engl…

Thanks for the correction. TIL.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rabbi Tarfon said, “Where there is no bread, there is no Torah; where there is no Torah, there is no bread.” it’s an interesting book that tells you to put the book down and go out and check in on your neighbor. So don’t let your backlog get in the way of that virtuous cycle.

Wise words. It's always a temptation. I've been tossing around the idea of doing a topical Bible study night/meal once a month with some neighbors who are interested (or at least tangentially so) along with some folks from Sunday school. A friend of mine who has been struggling with sin and faith suggested it. I feel a sense that your comment is being used to prod me a bit further. One of the fears I've had (just tos…

> I guess the only way to feed anyone is to start by making a meal.

if there’s one thing that echoes down through the line of prophets, it’s this seeking out of a hospitable way of neighborliness in a world which is stubbornly uninterested in it.

“So I called my Jesuit friend, Tom, who is a hopeless alcoholic of the worst sort, sober now for 22 years, someone who sometimes gets fat and wants to hang himself, so I trust him. I said, "Tell me a story about Advent. Tell me about people getting well."

https://www.salon.com/1998/12/10/10lamo/

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wise words. It's always a temptation. I've been tossing around the idea of doing a topical Bible study night/meal once a month with some neighbors who are interested (or at least tangentially so) along with some folks from Sunday school. A friend of mine who has been struggling with sin and faith suggested it. I feel a sense that your comment is being used to prod me a bit further. One of the fears I've had (just tos…

> I guess the only way to feed anyone is to start by making a meal. if there’s one thing that echoes down through the line of prophets, it’s this seeking out of a hospitable way of neighborliness in a world which is stubbornly uninterested in it. “So I called my Jesuit friend, Tom, who is a hopeless alcoholic of the worst sort, sober now for 22 years, someone who sometimes gets fat and wants to hang himself, so I tru…

Well said, and there's certainly a dearth of hospitality today. Surely that's true of all times, I realize, but through the ebb and flow of thoughtfulness and kindness it seems the West is at something of a local minimum (depending on where you live, of course).

The human condition is broadly uniform post-Fall, subject to the natural and elementary forces satisfied only by destruction.

Thank you for being a blessing and inspiration to do better!

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#246
post #197
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a look around for this recently discovered book, but can't find references -- can you point me towards some please, it'd be fascinating to read the contents / context.

'Recent' needs to be interpreted in biblical terms - the book I was thinking of is the Gosple of Thomas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas - discovered in 1945 (the 'Q' hypothesis having been made around 1900).

Okay, Thomas - lots of dispute about when it was written, and the anthology style makes timing even harder to determine, while increasing the chance it was modified over the centuries.

I recalled something about the intrigue over some parchments from this collection, and found this recent story [0] about the alleged illegal sale, recovery, translation efforts, and (this year) publication of some fragments.

One of the researchers is quoted in that article with a 'This is not Q' statement.

[0] https://www.thedailybeast.com/scholars-publish-new-papyrus-w...

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#247
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you get to that conclusion. Q is literally 'source' - with unknown author and unknown content - so we don't know what's in it nor what's not in it. Therefore I challenged the claim by parent that 'anything not in Q ...' because that's an objectively ludicrous statement. My 'theory', inasmuch as I have one, is that the authors of Luke and Matthew had different target audiences, different incentives, b…

I think earnestly citing RationalWiki is enough to give me pause to take the rest of your 'theory' seriously. You know it's a humor website for teenagers, right? It's essentially ED for a different kind of edgy post-reddit nerd, it's not really a serious place to learn about theology.

I was defending my earlier logic (we don't know what's in Q, therefore we don't know what's not in it). Have you identified a flaw there?

I would prefer to earnestly cite Price, Carrier, Fitzgerald etc, but those citations are less convenient, especially for casual readers (clicking a link rather than obtaining books).

Disliking the style of rationalwiki seems insufficient reason to discount the clear assertions made, explained, and with original sources cited on that page.

Can you identify matters of factual error in that graphic I pointed at, or other material on that link?

I note this is the only comment you've made on the entire thread. I don't believe it moves us forward.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#248
post #246
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Recent' needs to be interpreted in biblical terms - the book I was thinking of is the Gosple of Thomas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas - discovered in 1945 (the 'Q' hypothesis having been made around 1900).

Okay, Thomas - lots of dispute about when it was written, and the anthology style makes timing even harder to determine, while increasing the chance it was modified over the centuries. I recalled something about the intrigue over some parchments from this collection, and found this recent story [0] about the alleged illegal sale, recovery, translation efforts, and (this year) publication of some fragments. One of the…

Yes - before I go on, please note this is not my area of expertise, but just something I am interested in.

I haven't seen anywhere which suggests that Thomas is Q, but to me if a book of biblical quotations is hypothesised when none has previously been found, and forty-five years later a book of biblical quotations is discovered (which, despite uncertainty about its timing, certainly dates to at least a millennium before the hypothesis) that lends some weight to the hypothesis.

Of course, given my general ignorance in this area, perhaps books of quotations from this time are common, and hypothesising the existence of one is like hypothesising the existing of a website for a popular TV show in 2023 (i.e. a meaningless proposition).

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#249
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t find anything either. Q is probably an aggregate of the best creative free form half truth conspiracy writings that one was able to gather from various internet sources mixed with a garden variety of new age mystical belief and a dash of pure fn magic.

I think you're talking about a different Q. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source

Yes, good to know that one isn’t the mainstream.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Jesus is saying something particular about the rich here, but not that they are particularly sinful. Rather, they are particularly susceptible to trusting in their money and placing it above God (making an idol of it) which gets in the way of their being willing to follow Jesus and put their faith in Him. This goes along with another famous teaching of Jesus about money: “No one can serve two masters; for either…

In the preceding sections, Jesus basically tells the guy, who’d otherwise lived by the commandments, to come back after giving up all his money and stuff. It seems to me that he’s looking for some more concrete action than an internal change of heart. If I were a Christian I’d make sure to die poor at least, just to be safe.

I believe that a key position of the early church's teaching is that an inward change of the heart is not genuine if it does not manifest in outward concrete action. That's how you reconcile, for example, Paul's statements on salvation by grace and not works, with James' demonstration of his faith by his works. The works themselves don't save you, it is the sincere turning of the heart and belief in Jesus Christ. Paul made this point firmly to counter others who were teaching salvation by adherence to Jewish ceremonial law. But if your belief in Christ and turning of your heart does not result in changes in how you live, specifically following the commandments of Jesus, then James would question the sincerity of your conviction.
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