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The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

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Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#241

Post by rpmisms »

15457345234 wrote: post #234
rpmisms wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain how, because if stupid people have more kids, there will be more stupid people.

The heritability of intelligence and other factors is highly variable. You want people who will care diligently for their children to have them. Not people who will be largely indifferent to them, whether they're smart or dumb. The Musk 'I'll have ten and scatter them to the wind with bags of money, the odds will take care of the rest' strategy is not really one that works out well in real life.

I'm the oldest of 11 kids, and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this. I agree with your second statement, which is why conscientious people should have kids.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#242

Post by salamandersss »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #184
argiopetech wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are. That's one of the three states of infants (asleep, hungry, soiled). It's one of the major causes of upset and bad behavior in toddlers. It's obviously the case for children who don't get enough to eat due to deprivation. That doesn't mean my toddler wouldn't prefer ice cream over whatever is for dinner, though.

You're forgetting the fourth state: too hot/too cold. I only mention it because, as any parent knows, infants are effectively small finite state machines, and you can deal with their crying even half-awake, if you go through a mental checklist. But you'd better not miss a state to check :).

Or the fifth state, colic. It can last for months and the child will cry every waking hour. The binary flag is stuck 'on' which in my experience set every family member into a meltdown so you'll get no relief, because a baby that cries inconsolably for hours (months!) on end and can't be fixed is kryptonite to many people.

So yeah, good fucking luck if that happens. You'll have to feed on a schedule, change regularly and check even more regularly, guess appropriate temperature etc because the baby will be screaming bloody murder if awake no matter what.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#243

Post by trwkd »

11235813213455 wrote: post #68
getpost wrote: post #54

> the researchers say that children may be "evolutionarily primed" to expect exceptionally high levels of physical contact and care, What strikes me here is the phrase, "exceptionally high levels." I imagine children need a "normal" level of care; it's only "exceptionally high" in comparison to the deprived state of family systems in these degenerate times. I often reflect on the understanding in Attachment Theory, w…

I think it's not really about responding to 100% of a child demands, it's maybe even detrimental, and probably better to start teaching him patience, and let him learn what to do in boredom. But the other part is having long and meaningful activities/experiences with a child

Sounds like parents too tired from work making up reasons why being exploited past the point where they can care for their kids is actually a good thing.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#244

Post by trwkd »

rexpop wrote: post #190
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have brainwashed our western minds to make women leave their kids in daycare sometimes weeks after being born. Then we are brainwashed to let kids sleep in a separate room so that mommy can get a good night's rest and be productive at work. We need a minimum of 3 years of maternity leave in our country to being with. It is insane as one of the best countries in the world we don't let people have kids naturally.

Families with "women in the workplace" are not brainwashed, they are wielding hard earned rights and freedoms against violently indifferent economic structures. Under capitalism, we are not free unless we draw a wage, and women have learned there are no wages for housework.

Yes those free loading kids need to be paying their mothers for all the labor they provide.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#245

Post by salamandersss »

em-bee wrote: post #237
salamandersss wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's ok if you don't find joy. Personally I had a very involved father and supportive partner. I understand my duty and am fulfilling it with full acceptance and gravity, I just keep this one piece of independence for my sanity-- the right to the validity of my emotion regarding how that duty makes me feel.

i do find joy, just not only in the way some people may expect it. (like i enjoy playing with the kids, but i don't enjoy not having much time to do so) i think the primary problem is expectations of others. i may be lucky, that i do have a supportive family and partner that do not push any specific expectations on me, so i am free to find the enjoyment where i like. and a strong part of that for me is that i enjoy t…

Your opinion is perfectly valid.

The main expectations I am driven by are to provide the child with adequate resources to thrive, to not neglect the child, and to give them a good footing to navigate this life. I'm not sure if these are expectations that can reasonably be relaxed, I'm just pretty much resigned I'm in for a long slog to provide these for the good of the child at great effort to myself whether it pleases me or not -- the circle of life I guess.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#246

Post by 15457345234 »

rpmisms wrote: post #241
15457345234 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The heritability of intelligence and other factors is highly variable. You want people who will care diligently for their children to have them. Not people who will be largely indifferent to them, whether they're smart or dumb. The Musk 'I'll have ten and scatter them to the wind with bags of money, the odds will take care of the rest' strategy is not really one that works out well in real life.

I'm the oldest of 11 kids, and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this. I agree with your second statement, which is why conscientious people should have kids.

I have very little of substance to add beyond 'you should really think about it, and do it for your own reasons alone.'

Kids aren't something you owe the world, and Idiocracy is just a movie.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#247

Post by ClumsyPilot »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #93
throwaway22032 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not wanting to be a parent is one thing, but people who don't want to be involved with kids need to work on themselves, that's a deeply antisocial trait - your own existence depended on everyone around you being involved with you to some degree.

That is an opinion, not a fact. Freedom of association and to be happy can include not interacting with children you choose not to, and optimizing for happiness is important (versus a social contract requiring otherwise). No one will optimize for your own happiness besides you. I have kids, but fully respect people who don’t care for or want to avoid time and interaction with kids. I respect their boundaries, that is…

> I have kids, but fully respect people who don’t care for or want to avoid time and interaction with kids

How would this sound:

"I fully respect people who want to avoid time and interaction with black people"

Why is okay to say "I hate kids", we would not think kindly of someone who says "I hate Women/Jews/etc.".

Kids were exploited, historically, just like any other minority - we used to send them into the coal mines and many didn't come back.

Even today, we discriminate against young people all the time. A 17 year old is not allowed to vote, but come 18 and they may be forced into the army and sent to fight a war, without ever having a say in the matter.

They are the last minority that we world does not respect, and has no plan to respect as the world is becoming more geniatric (look at the age of congress) whils moving into a climate calamity.

And I am not writing this as a young person, not any more.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#248

Post by shiroiuma »

glitchc wrote: post #221
amrocha wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that there's more joy to parenthood. I think that's a lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision. I'm happy for you if you're happy to have children. That doesn't mean people without children aren't as happy as you.

Can you really have an objective opinion until you experience both sides? I suspect it isn't the parents that are lying to themselves...

>I suspect it isn't the parents that are lying to themselves...

I suspect some of them are genuinely happy they had kids, some others are lying to themselves, and some others lie to others because they don't want to become pariahs when it's found out that they wish they hadn't had kids.

You can read the opinions of the last group on some anonymous discussion forums; they're real people.

What the relative ratios of these 3 groups are, I have no idea, and I doubt there's any way of finding out.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#249

Post by Auracle »

amrocha wrote: post #210
bnlxbnlx wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, parenthood is intense, both both ways. It intensifies the highs and the lows. There's more strain and there's more joy. And there's a lot less strain when moving out of nuclear family structures. It all becomes easier for the children and the parents.

I disagree that there's more joy to parenthood. I think that's a lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision. I'm happy for you if you're happy to have children. That doesn't mean people without children aren't as happy as you.

Other people have put it more eloquently and perhaps a bit more diplomatically, but you’re wrong.

I lived for 33 years before having a child and nothing - absolutely nothing - ever brought me more joy than something as simple as my daughter’s stupid grin when I’m on my back and she’s above me, ready to pounce.

While I’m sure not every parent feels the same way, I bet most do. I feel sorry for the people out there that would get the same feeling but will never experience it.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#250

Post by drivebyhooting »

salamandersss wrote: post #242
TeMPOraL wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're forgetting the fourth state: too hot/too cold. I only mention it because, as any parent knows, infants are effectively small finite state machines, and you can deal with their crying even half-awake, if you go through a mental checklist. But you'd better not miss a state to check :).

Or the fifth state, colic. It can last for months and the child will cry every waking hour. The binary flag is stuck 'on' which in my experience set every family member into a meltdown so you'll get no relief, because a baby that cries inconsolably for hours (months!) on end and can't be fixed is kryptonite to many people. So yeah, good fucking luck if that happens. You'll have to feed on a schedule, change regularly…

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