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macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

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Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#241

Post by sneak »

MBCook wrote: post #185
pmarreck wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do Macs still have this?

No, it stopped for the Intel switch, I believe.

Yeah, the Open Firmware preboot Forth console was a PowerPC only thing.

Now Apple’s bootloader is actually a tiny macOS. As much as I don’t like the complexity this brings, I do strongly approve of a boot environment that supports proper input devices and video. My iMac Pro’s (intel, non-macOS-based bootloader) bootloader drops keyboard inputs when typing my long passphrase because I type too fast for it. The Mx macs no longer have this problem.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#242

Post by School-Cotton »

m45t3r wrote: post #225
School-Cotton wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> macOS seems to be considerably worse Most users will just take their machine in to the Apple Store when this kind of thing happens, rather than try to fix it themselves.

Sure, doesn't make this any less inconvenient though. I would much prefer to finish whatever I want to finish today (even if I spend a few hours trying to fix an issue) than wait whatever amount of days waiting until my hardware is fixed.

> doesn't make this any less inconvenient though

You're right that it's not ideal, but it certainly makes it a lot _less_ inconvenient than being completely stuck forever (as most non-highly-technical people would be if they had to follow instructions on forums to fix Linux).

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#243

Post by OJFord »

ehutch79 wrote: post #239

Reading many of the comments here… I wonder if a lot of hacker news commenters have actually met real, everyday users of technology. Not other nerds and grognards, but like, the lady sitting over in a cubical, who only knows enough about computers to do their job. Do you really think users want graphic mode selection on boot? What percent of Mac users have alternate bootloaders or even know what that means. A lot of…

From the submission:

> Once System Firmware is updated to the macOS Sonoma version, if the display is configured to a refresh rate other than ProMotion, that system will no longer be able to boot into older macOS installs nor Asahi Linux correctly. This includes recovery mode when those systems are set as the default boot OS, and also System Recovery at least until the next subsequent OS upgrade.

That can and will absolutely affect regular users, even if they don't 'care' about it or 'know what it means'.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#244

Post by whywhywhywhy »

krackers wrote: post #5

See also his twitter for some speculation as to how on earth simply changing refresh rate would cause boot corruption: https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/111329614147717090 >Why? I can tell you why: because Apple hates display modeset flicker, and switching modes between ProMotion on/off causes a modeset flicker, so of course they made it so that is stored in nvram somewhere and applied when the screen is turne…

>Why? I can tell you why: because Apple hates display modeset flicker,

Thank god someone does. Hate how jank plugging monitors in just because some engineers thought “meh, good enough”.

Don’t think I should be seeing things flicker anywhere in my life with the computing power we have today and yet many consider visual nails on a chalkboard as acceptable.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#245

Post by MichaelZuo »

SamuelAdams wrote: post #231
benreesman wrote: post #228

I don’t know what’s going on with Apple lately. They’ve built one of the world’s best brands after a near-death experience via a ruthless focus on and fanatical commitment to providing a holistically premium experience (for the people who want their version of that) to justify their premium pricing and huge margins. If you like what they do, it Just Works from purchase on. Or did until recently. Just today I had an e…

The Apple today is very different from the Apple of 20 years ago. The brand is the same, yes, but the people are all largely different. You see this all the time in the video game industry, ie Blizzard, Bungie, 343 industries. Maybe the newest group of programmers and engineers are dealing with a very complicated code base? Maybe no one fully understands everything involved until something breaks?

It's likely not a single person understands the entire MacOS stack anymore, at least since Mavericks, all the pre-1985 old guard engineers having retired by then.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#246

Post by somehnguy »

baz00 wrote: post #40
crazygringo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Apple Store is usually great with this stuff. If there's a documented problem that affects your hardware model and the given software versions, they're extremely unlikely to try to charge you for anything.

If it's not documented and you have a problem then you are usually shit out of luck. The early days of butterfly keyboards was hell for a lot of people. I managed to get mine back to them for a full refund 3 days after I got it thank fuck.

I got a full MacBook Pro replacement when my MBP had something wrong causing it to charge extremely slowly - completely on Apple's dime. They first sent me an overnight shipping box to send in my MBP, where they then replaced the top case assembly. After that didn't work they overnighted me a brand new in box MBP.

I had to spend 6+ hours on the phone over multiple days with a senior tech support staff to make it happen, but at least it was eventually resolved and I didn't pay anything for it. Obviously it wasn't a documented problem because we troubleshooted everything possible before replacement.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#247

Post by throwaway290 »

p_l wrote: post #223
krackers wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple store employees probably may not have access to bug reports that their engineers would be able to access?

In many countries Apple stores aren't run by Apple and won't have access to bug reports.

Uh, what? You mean the actual Apple Stores (which are only available in select countries) are not run by Apple? That would be new.

If you mean various third party resellers then of course, it's just a run of the mill shop that happens to sell Apple products, a completely different experience.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#248

Post by rollcat »

crazygringo wrote: post #26
frankjr wrote: post #11

> Do not let them charge you any money for it. This is a problem Apple caused, and purely a software issue. If the technicians claim there is hardware damage, they are wrong. Good luck with that.

The Apple Store is usually great with this stuff. If there's a documented problem that affects your hardware model and the given software versions, they're extremely unlikely to try to charge you for anything.

Yep, my experience has usually been the opposite. "We normally charge for fixing this, but we're a little embarrassed that this happened so it's free".

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#249

Post by jcul »

I'm not a Mac or Asahi user (though I think it is an amazing project).

However, this is such a great write up, very thorough with root cause, mitigations etc.

Keep up the good work!

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#250

Post by throwaway290 »

ehutch79 wrote: post #239

Reading many of the comments here… I wonder if a lot of hacker news commenters have actually met real, everyday users of technology. Not other nerds and grognards, but like, the lady sitting over in a cubical, who only knows enough about computers to do their job. Do you really think users want graphic mode selection on boot? What percent of Mac users have alternate bootloaders or even know what that means. A lot of…

If you met an everyday user of technology you'd see that he/she is completely fine simply remembering what to click on a cryptic screen which no one understands or has time to spend looking up. Just think of all the notifications and alerts about various security stuff while you need to get things done. Muscle memory. Except unlike security warnings, dismissing which can pwn you, in this case it could one day save your system/work so I don't see how it's not worthwhile.

This issue can occur to any user who wants to have two macOS versions for whatever reason. Not that extraordinary especially between creative professionals

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