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The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

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Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#241

It’s astonishing that a project as critical and widely used as ImageMagick can’t even scrape together $629 for something as essential as a software signature. It’s a glaring example of how the tech industry fails to financially support the very open-source projects that it relies so heavily upon. Despite offering incredible value, these projects often can’t capture enough of it to sustain themselves. It’s a sobering…

universal basic income?

Doesn't capture enough value. Not proportional to creative output as it should be. Fair idea for just general living, everyone should receive that. But, if you create value, you get rewarded. Capitalism FTW

Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#242

Why do we let any random application open its own files and folders at will? The actual selection and opening of files and other resources should be the job of the operating system. GUI programs should be able to call "open" "save" and other dialogs to get handles to files, not just their names. The OS should limit access to resources to those it provides (as capability tokens) and nothing else. For CLI programs, the…

> Why do we let any random application open its own files and folders at will? The actual selection and opening of files and other resources should be the job of the operating system This is how macOS works these days with sandboxing. Unless you manually go into system settings to grant "full disk access", apps only get access to files the user has manually selected (through the system open dialog, drag and drop, dou…

Almost but not quite. Mac sandboxing is optional and doesn't eliminate the signing requirement because Apple see it as a way for app authors to reduce the impact of vulns in their app, not as a way for users to run untrusted Mac apps.

Therefore there's no GUI to see whether an app uses the sandbox or not, or what permissions it requests, and apps can statically request any permissions they want and they'll be granted silently.

Apple do this because their vision of solving software trust revolves around vetting people in the app stores. It's still very much code signing and identity based.

Of all app platforms, only the web attempts to let people run arbitrary malicious code without risk.

Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Yep that’s what i meant. 629/yr. It’s travesty they can’t afford it. Can’t edit now. Thank you for clarifying!

They surely can afford it, they just rather spend it on more meaningful things. Like taking out your entire family for dinner, having a developer meetup or whatever they do with their own money. You seem to be both interested in ImageMagick and having certified binaries, why don't YOU pay it?

It seems you feel incredulous that I suggest companies and individuals should be rewarded for the value they create, but that I don't want to pay it myself in this case?

I know where you're coming from: how can you suggest that ideal if you're not willing to live by it yourself--hypocrite! discard the rest of what this person says. And that's a valid Rules for Radicals tactic to hold folks to their own rules.

However, where I think you misunderstand in this case, is I am arguing for a principle, I don't have a need of a licensed ImageMagick Windows binary in this case. My comments make it clear that I'm discussing the wider issue of exploitation in OSS.

This issue itself will not be solved by me chartiably bailing out a struggling project based on a general principle. In fact, such charitable expectations go against the solutions I propose.

Instead, the solution I advocate for in my comments here is: bring easy transactions to open-source.

But if we are being overly glib and misrepresentative, then permit me my own inaccurate and irrelevant misrepresentation of you as hypocrite, too, please--for fairness of course: why don't YOU act entitled and demand free features that you "really need" but you never intend to pay for, then a throw a tantrum when they are declined?

You see how that tac doesn't really work? I'm sure you're not actually like that. Just as you should be sure I'm not in fact like you wish to merely pretend. Generously, at least you should assume I'm not! :)

Anyway, aside from such lightweight guerilla shots, do you have anything substantial to contribute to this discussion? I feel you do and eagerly await it, if you channel your passion into a sharp and perceptive comment! :)

--

So let's start over with some analysis of whether they can afford it or not:

> "Surely they can afford it but wish to spend on other things."

Your statement implies they can't actually afford it, since they opt to allocate funds elsewhere. The opportunity cost appears too high for them.

> "But a certificate there would cost $629 (tax excluded) for a single year. If your organization requires a signed installer then please consider sponsoring us with a code signing certificate."

The GitHub announcement use of "but" and the immediate call for sponsorship suggest that the $629 price is, in fact, a financial hurdle for them. Suggesting, contrary to your claim, that they cannot, in fact, afford it.

Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#244
post #45

How does this work? Does Digicert "host" the HSM in the cloud for you and make it possible to automate things again? The goal of us developers is of course to fully automatically sign an executable, while the CAB forum seems to want one to always enter a pin code in a hw device anytime you make a build. Are there any good solutions or hacks to automate it? Does Digicert really make it possible again to just invoke si…

The cheaper option is SSL.com eSigner which is also a cloud hosted HSM where you can access it using ordinary saved credentials.

In theory they want you to use a 2FA authenticator for it so their protocol requires TOTP secrets and the like. In practice nothing stops you saving the seed to a file, so you can sign automatically.

Of course then you're reducing the security gained by the system. Your CI becomes a very weak point. But it does work.

The CAB Forum is well aware that people want to and can sign automatically. The purpose of the HSM is to fix revocation, not to require manual intervention for signing software.

Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#245

I feel their pain. I built an open source video player for esports coaches[1] that it given away for free and one the constant complaints about it is that users have to bypass warnings when installing it for the first time. I can afford to pay for certificates (I believe I have to have one for Windows and OSX) but I refuse to for a project that I already give away my time for. I would love to see a LetsEncrypt style…

> it's against the core interests of Microsoft / Apple to allow something like this as it would start to drive people away from the walled gardens of the app stores

For utility style apps, Microsoft's app store is a joke.

Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will you notice if the software will be signed by certificate for "imagemaqick.com" or "imagemagik.com" or "imagemagick-developers.com"?

Hopefully Windows will remember that I downloaded the file from imagemagic.com check that the certificate matches the place I downloaded it from... Although... As long as downloads are always provided from the official domain via HTTPS, and the OS can keep track of that, I don't really see why the executable itself needs to be signed...

unless they use a cdn with a hostname like imagemagick-14.akamai.net

Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#247
I've been through hell and back on both Windows and MacOS with application signing. It's only getting worse.

First thing I have to note is that this really makes me want to offer anything as a web app. The browser offers a much better experience in so many ways and security is a well thought out integrated experience unlike these 25 year old operating systems bolting security on as an after thought. Clearly no one at Apple cares about this but that would be funny if this was the crack in the dam that broke down their hardware software monopoly.

Second thing is why can't a third party offer this as a service? I'm not limited in the number of apps I can sign technically, right? Why would people using my app care that the certificate says it is signed by me instead of (trusted by the os) ABC, corp that (Microsoft|Apple) says in their overlaid dialog they trust. They could revoke something in the chain but it's technically possible right? Is this explicitly prohibited in some EULA I accepted in a brain fog?

Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#248

It’s astonishing that a project as critical and widely used as ImageMagick can’t even scrape together $629 for something as essential as a software signature. It’s a glaring example of how the tech industry fails to financially support the very open-source projects that it relies so heavily upon. Despite offering incredible value, these projects often can’t capture enough of it to sustain themselves. It’s a sobering…

... having to pay $629 just to ship a thing you made for free? I refuse to accept this as a normal thing to do. Microsoft inflicted this upon the Windows ecosystem themselves.

Yet you didn't really make it for "Free". That's part of the lie (innocent here surely) that developers time is "limiteless and cost free". Lies such as these lead to and support the abusive and exploitative sense of entitlement that many, unfortunately, take towards OSS.

It's costs are many. If you have a more humane bent you will consider the psychological toll, and note the many "I'm leaving OSS" posts one can observe. If you have a different bent you may appreciate the more economic cost incurred by this lack of market efficiency: an exploitative market that fails to ensure commensurate exchange of value does not have much future.

At best, "cost free" OSS is a short-term play, murkily backed by the same "robber baron" attitudes than underpin the exploitation of workers (and the gaslighting of the whole class to believe they can expect nothing more), throughout human history.

Let's not permit OSS to go down this sad, tired and disastrous path. You can't grow the productive output of a market unless you respect property rights and exchange of value.

Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#249

It’s astonishing that a project as critical and widely used as ImageMagick can’t even scrape together $629 for something as essential as a software signature. It’s a glaring example of how the tech industry fails to financially support the very open-source projects that it relies so heavily upon. Despite offering incredible value, these projects often can’t capture enough of it to sustain themselves. It’s a sobering…

Free Software is about freedom. Not paying rent to Microsoft or their partners.

"Freedom for whom?" For the developers whose time they invested. For the users who are not "free" of their problems that prompt them to see these "free" solutions?

Nothing about OSS is free. "Free" is a lie. Pernicious, in that it was passed off under the guise of some ideal, yet it undermines the long term sustainability of the field by supporting a sense of entitlement.

Re: The Windows installer of ImageMagick will no longer be signed

#250
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the scale of ImageMagick- $629 is a very, very small amount of money considering the value that IM has generated.

Have you considered volunteering to pay for and run the signing infrastructure?

There's a better way to see this: once can make a statement about the principle of the necessity of having transactions to exchange value, but not have a particular demand for the offered good or service themselves. I think that's what's going on here, so it might be better to keep these seeming "gotcha" type questions, which are irrelevant, either out of the discussion, or at least remember how they are misplaced! :)
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