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Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#241

Post by smileysteve »

smileysteve wrote: post #40
asdff wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations and what becomes more compelling to the consumer flips overnight. Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. It seems like there's a lot lot less inertia to get consumers over that hurdle than the EV hurdle, where charge times are long and convenient chargers not a guarantee in…

Lol at all ; Hydrogen can't easily be transported in current pipelines; Can't be transported in current trucks, and can't be stored in current gas station tanks. And if the gas station doesn't maintain its hoses, nozzles, or seals; you don't wind up with a slight smell, a carcinogenic irritation -- you experience frostbite to you hand immediately.

Though the maintenance issue can be solved with a nitrogen pressure test before - the equivalent of electrical connectors verifying the connection digitally before sending the amps.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#242

Post by ClumsyPilot »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #2

Not saying the oil sector is powerless by any means, and I guess maybe they're going for regulatory capture, but this is a non-starter from an economic reality perspective so I'm not too worried about it. The train is well out of the station for electric vehicles. I believe every car maker (save 1 that I know about) is fully committed to 100% electrified vehicles in the not-too-distant future. I feel like eventually…

> The train is well out of the station for electric vehicles.

British government has just postponed it's EV vehicle transition by 5 years, British tabloids are printing articles about how EVs will never work for British uniquely harsh weather

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#243

Post by jbm »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #198
jbm wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 50Hz and 60Hz is an accident of history and neatly splits the country in half. It's not a problem.

Their domestic voltage is also 100v. I've never thought about it before but it does seem like that might pose some challenges in electrifying their road transportation. 240v is considerably more useful when you are trying to suck down 7kw or more.

Now that you mention it, the electric connection in my home in Tokyo was much worse than the one I have in Calgary. They might have connections of 60 amps [1] or less where I lived (whereas my home in Calgary has a 100 amp connection which can be upgraded to 200 if I paid for it)

[1] Found this here (https://www4.tepco.co.jp/en/customer/guide/moving-e.html), I don't recall what exactly it was where I lived.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#246

Post by dexwiz »

meindnoch wrote: post #116
cracrecry wrote: post #113

There is an Oil Sector Lobby and there is an electric sector Lobby too. All Lobbies hate competition. The electric sector wants to destroy Hydrogen because it competes with them, of course, they want to destroy the seed so no tree comes out of it. Hydrogen disappearing is not going to happen, because it going to be necessary for some things, like heavy transportation. Just because clean Hydrogen is in the early stage…

>It is also toxic and difficult to handle, like oil Except oil is a liquid, while ammonia is a gas. You can put oil in an open container and it won't hurt anyone. Now try doing the same with ammonia...

Ammonia is more comparable to natural gas or propane than oil.

Also crude oil is really toxic. It off gasses all sorts of questionable things, and touching it isn't recommended. I get what you mean by your comment, but oil isn't some super stable, safe material.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#247

Post by ClumsyPilot »

serial_dev wrote: post #233
beachy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. I don't know that people's cultural attraction to fueling at the gas station is high at all. After we got an EV I realised how much I had actually disliked filling the car. Smelly, every time an in your face reminder of the fossil fuels you are burning. Having to go in an queue. Having…

Isn't the long charging time an issue? After a quick search, Tesla needs 30 minutes to charge to 80% with superchargers and this is good for 300 kms. Assuming 120 kmh, this means that about every 2.5 hrs, I need to take a 30 min break. With the old system, I fuel in 2 minutes and I can travel 600 kms on it or approx 6 hrs (assuming 50 litres fuel tank and 7.5 litres per 100 km, and 120 km/h). (I don't have a car, and…

If your main usecase is using the car in the city, which it is for my family for example, then you go for months without seeing a fuel station of any sort.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#248

Post by beefandcheese »

bparsons wrote: post #62

There are good use cases for both technologies. For smaller, lighter vehicles in warmer climates, lithium batteries make a lot of sense. For heavy, long haul trucks that require minimal refueling, hydrogen fuel cell makes a lot of sense. You need to build out the infrastructure for both.

Its mostly the infrasctructure thats the problem though. Its complex, expensive and overall just less efficient than full EV. Ageing wheels has an entertaining vid of the Toyota Mirai where he discusses the pros and cons of hydrogen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtZQLUtckS4

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#250

Post by ben_w »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #197
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen for cars is dead. However long haul flights, fertilizer, green steel, etc. very difficult to find a carbon free alternative that isn’t hydrogen.

For long haul flight, hydrogen's main use is going to be producing fuels that can actually go that distance. Hydrogen has a volumetric problem and it just isn't a great fuel for that reason. Even over short distances this is problematic. It just takes up too much space. It's about 2.5 x that of lng in both liquid and gas form. In liquid form, you need to cool it to a few degrees above 0 degrees kelvin, which makes it…

> Green hydrogen production is minuscule and relatively inefficient and costly. Most uses of hydrogen today are neither green nor sustainable. Or carbon free. And that's going to stay like this for a while.

Your other points hold, but I don't think this one is necessarily so (depending what you mean by "a while"): electrolysis is so incredibly trivial that I suspect it'll become green as fast as the grid in general, and if current exponential trend continues, that's going to be almost everything within a decade.

If the current exponential continues. It might, but such is never assured.

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