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Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

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241–250 of 269 posts

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#241
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever wondered how these “small group of extremists” came about holding the entire country hostage? That’s because US nation state apparatus decided to overthrow democratically elected government there for their own interests. When you study American foreign policy, you can’t help but wondering it’s indeed not the interest of USA to have once unconquerable empires like Persia to be thriving and realize their full pote…

Yeah, the us did kick it off in Iran. Then religious extremists managed to transition that to longterm despotic control of the country. Before the us overthrew the former govt, Iran wasn't exactly an unconquerable empire for a very long time though. And the us didn't learn it's lesson, having done this over and over again in south america and central america and other places. It seems like we are currently in a perio…

US does whatever the President, Senate, Congress votes to do at the time.

It seems US is learning it's lesson but only takes one president to declare a war. Iran and Afghanistan were massive failures and trillions of tax payer dollars wasted.

Even US supporting Ukraine has resulted in failure. Failure in the sense of millions of lives lost and displaced, no victory for Ukraine and Russia is still destroying their infrastructure.

I support US helping other countries when a victory is swift and definitive.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#242
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question, doesn't the ultra-orthodox wing reflect the popular opinion of the country ? My understanding is that Iran has among the greatest Urban-Rural divides in the world, and that the rural population is large enough to democratically force their conservative views onto the urban population. Turkey seems to be in a similar position, but their proximity to NATO and Europe keeps them somewhat grounded. > sma…

Well, shooting down protestors is not democratic. Democracy is not a tyranny of the majority!

> Well, shooting down protestors is not democratic. Democracy is not a tyranny of the majority!

Are you speaking about Iran or the USA or Israel?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/08/george-floyd...

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/05/un-experts-d...

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/rachel-corrie-ac...

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#243

I feel the Nobel prize was less for fighting for women's rights, and more for fighting against an anti-American, anti-Western government. For some reason, I don't see the award ever going to a rights activist fighting against the Saudi, Pakistani, or any other American-allied regimes. I of course don't ever see it going to someone fighting against the American regime itself, and its mass surveillance and war crimes,…

This is because civil rights are a Western ideology. They certainly didn't come from ISIS' views on women. Nor from Russia and China, who supported them. Snowden defected to Russia, see above about supporting ISIS. Assange and Manning's exposure literally cost the lives of Afghan families who were working against AQ, another regime that openly oppresses its people's civil rights. I think you might need to have a hard…

[deleted]

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#244

I feel the Nobel prize was less for fighting for women's rights, and more for fighting against an anti-American, anti-Western government. For some reason, I don't see the award ever going to a rights activist fighting against the Saudi, Pakistani, or any other American-allied regimes. I of course don't ever see it going to someone fighting against the American regime itself, and its mass surveillance and war crimes,…

My personal favorite is still Henry Kissinger, alive and well at 100 years old.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right. Although those recipients were clearly in favor of non-violent fighting for human rights and were not explicitly anti-western or anti-US (the definitions of non-recipients this subthread started with) When Dr King began opposing the Vietnam war instead of simply fighting for equal rights at home he became a larger menace.

The definition of non-recipients was never tied to violence. The examples given were Edward Snowden, Julian Assange and Chelsea Manning, all peaceful activists or journalists.

Media made sure these three were tied to violence.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is obvious there is much more attention and criticism on Iran than other regimes you are not supposed to care, and you don't even need to look very far. Everyone always acts like it's some kind of conspiracy that their most-hated governments don't get sufficient criticism or that their favorite governments get more than a fair share of criticism.

Why do you assume it isn't a conspiracy? It is. It is absolutely a conspiracy. WSJ, NYT or Guardian know which words are allowed for Iran and which are for Saudis.

I can only roll my eyes at this and continue to not take you seriously.

First of all, you're assuming a parity between the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia. A couple of years ago, I would have been more sympathetic to this point, but with Iran's brutal crackdown of late, which apparently includes widespread rape of women in prisons, I think it's safe to say the Regime is accomplishing the impressive feat of making Saudi Arabia look good.

Really, I think it may really just come down to money; Saudi Arabia is in the fortunate position of being able to pay large chunks of its citizenry to be docile and follow the rules. If their economy was similarly bad, I do think it's likely they would be also be engaging in violent repression.

Second of all, you can probably find plenty of Guardian articles criticizing the Saudi government. In fact, you've provided very little evidence of any kind that those three publications use any of the same language at all about either government, or that they don't criticize Saudi Arabia.

Third, even if you could point to similarities, it wouldn't be evidence of a "conspiracy"; it would instead merely reflect a double-standard held among the Western public at large, which tends to view Iran worse than Saudi Arabia because, on some reptilian level, it knows Saudi Arabia is a geo-political ally and Iran is an enemy. If you want to say this opinion is hypocritical, I'd say you're probably right (especially since Saudi hasn't been acting like an ally lately), but of course, you're not making any such reasonable claim.

At the end of the day, an allegation of "conspiracy" is simply something lodged by what I would call the "ignorant arrogant"; people who think they are smarter than they are, but who actually have no desire or ability to actually think critically. Instead, they just want an easy answer to lay blame for things they don't like. There is a lot of mental and emotional infirmity involved in calling things "conspiracies".

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#247
post #112

Well deserved. Iran has so much potential. It's extremely sad how a small group of extremists holds the entire country hostage.

Ever wondered how these “small group of extremists” came about holding the entire country hostage? That’s because US nation state apparatus decided to overthrow democratically elected government there for their own interests. When you study American foreign policy, you can’t help but wondering it’s indeed not the interest of USA to have once unconquerable empires like Persia to be thriving and realize their full pote…

> Ever wondered how these “small group of extremists” came about holding the entire country hostage? That’s because US nation state apparatus decided to overthrow democratically elected government there for their own interests.

It is tiresome to read again and again on the internet about how my country would be X or Y had the evil Westerners not "overthrown" the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953.

This false narrative is bandied around so much and so many fall for it with zero interest or curiosity to delve deeper to see if any of it is true.

Well, no, it isn't true.

Sadly, unfortunately, tragically, [insert adjective of your choice here]...

#Iran has NEVER been a democracy

Read that again.

While our future is bright and with the imminent the removal of the Islamic theocracy we will have the opportunity to have a secular democracy that represents and governs all Iranians, that will be a very important first for our ancient people, land and society.

What most ignorant people refer to in the above lazy copypasta are the events in and around 1953 with the appointment and dismissal of Mossadegh.

#READ THAT AGAIN

*appointment*

and

*dismissal*

Mossadegh was appointed, not elected, as per the 1906 Iranian constitution:

> ART. 46. The appointment and dismissal of Ministers is effected by virtue of the Royal Decree of the King.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Ira...

You and I may not like that article in the 1906 constitution. While we're free to have our opinions about it, we can not have our own facts. The facts are that just like previous PM's (which included him btw!) Mossadegh was appointed legally (in accordance with the enacted constitutional framework) and also legally dismissed as well.

Funny that no one mentions or even remembers the first time around that he was appointed and dismissed: 28 April 1951 appointed and 17 July 1952 dismissed (1 year, 80 days) but every ignorant person loses their minds re the second time in 1952/1953 !!

Furthermore, it is hilarious that Mossadegh is now seen by some ignorant people devoid of any historical knowledge as a symbol or champion of democracy.

Mossadegh was so "democratic" that his referendum to dissolve parliament so that he obtains absolute power won 99.93% of the votes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_parliamentary_dis...

What did credible international publications think of his democratic zeal?

> TIME magazine: “Hitler’s best as a vote-getter was 99.81% Ja’s in 1936; Stalin’s peak was 99.73% Da’s in 1946. Last week Premier Mohammed Mossadegh, the man in the iron cot, topped them all with 99.93%.”

> NBC TV’s John Cameron Swayze announced: Mossadegh “has accomplished what Hitler and Stalin could not. He received 99 9⁄10 percent of the vote in a carefully managed referendum.”

> New York Times: “A plebiscite more fantastic and farcical than any ever held under Hitler or Stalin is now being staged in Iran by Premier Mossadegh in an effort to make himself unchallenged dictator of the country.”

> NYT, A Bid For Dictatorship, 7/15/52:”Having brought his country to the verge of bankruptcy,Premier Mossadegh is now trying to take it further along the road to ruin by demanding dictatorial powers for 6 months,on the plea that he needs these powers to pull Iran out of the crisis into which he has plunged it.What he proposes is in effect a legalized coup d’etat that smacks of Hitler’s technique.This is the legal device by which Hitler also acquired absolute powers he had no intention,of course, of surrendering them on termination of the ostensible period for which they had been granted, and there is no assurance that Mr. Mossadegh would act differently.”

> Melbourne paper, The Argus (8/21/53): “THE swift and violent overthrow of Dr. Mossadegh , Premier and virtual dictator of Persia, has been a complete surprise to the world, and a pleasant surprise to the Western half of it.”

The fact is many contemporary international news outlets referred to Mossadegh as a dictator because that’s what he was. There was nothing democratic about his reign (nor his coup attempt at overthrowing the Shah) Anyone who says otherwise is either naive or lying.

There’s only one reason a handful of Iranians have rehabilitated, re-branded, mythologized and continue to promote Mossadegh: their disdain for the late Shah.

Lamenting the loss of a Mossadeq because of democratic ambitions betrays a lack of knowledge of Iranian history.The most common misconception is that he was democratically elected. He wasn’t, he was appointed by the King.Another misconception is that he was a champion of democracy.

During his tenure Mossadegh dissolved the senate, shut down parliament, not once did he hold a full meeting of the council of ministers, suspended elections for the National Assembly, announced he would rule by decree, jailed hundreds of opponents, and the cherry on top of this "democratic" so called champion: he dismissed the Supreme Court.

This angered the National Assembly so he announced a referendum to decide if it should be dissolved. At the opening session he gave a speech aimed at intimidating dissenters saying only 80% of those present truly represented the people - for visuals think Saddam’s parliament speech with that cigar.

Our “champion of democracy” arranged that those voting for dissolution and those against voted in plainly marked booths. The signal was clear: anyone brave enough to vote in opposition would be beaten up by his street hooligans/Tudeh (Communist) supporters.

Dissolution won by 99% of all votes!

In one town with a population of 3,000, 18000 votes were cast in favor of Mossadeq’s undemocratic dissolution. His democratic ideals were so far reaching he allowed the dead to vote. Hundreds of people were killed during his rigged elections.

By the time of the counter-coup that toppled him he had 27 gallows put up on Sepah Square to hang his enemies in public. All but approximately 4 days of his premiership were under martial law/curfew. There was nothing democratic about his reign.

While a member of parliament he posed as a champion of the constitution, due process, representative govt, free press; but only in a few months did he do the things mentioned above. Khomeini promised democracy too. Had his revolution not succeeded he too would be touted a great democrat

From 1941-1979 Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi appointed & dismissed 22 PMs (incl. Mossadegh twice) in accordance to the 1906 Constitution.Yet, Mossadeq is the only 1 referred 2 as “democratically elected” despite the fact that all were appointed and dismissed in the same manner.

What set Mossadeq apart from the pack were his political ambitions.After becoming Prime Minister he successfully forced the Shah 2 appoint him Minister of War,granting himself absolute power.He soon replaced officers w/those loyal 2 him, consolidating power to obtain the throne via a coup

When the Shah finally dismissed Mossadegh in accordance with his legal authority under the Constitution of 1906, Mossadeq had the officer who delivered the dismissal decree arrested, his Foreign Minister published an editorial in Bakhtar-e-Emruz denouncing the Shah & called for his ouster.

It’s clear to the objective student of Iranian modern history that Mossadeq initiated a coup against the Shah and the events that followed & led to Mossadegh’s downfall should more appropriately be labeled a “counter-coup”

The Mossadegh that many promote is more of a myth like CheGuevara. People think he stood for things which were inconsistent with reality.

Also, it bears notice that Mossadeq's own Chief of Police & cousin, General Daftari, joined the royal forces to topple him. He was disliked by everyone except his communist friends.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume it isn't a conspiracy? It is. It is absolutely a conspiracy. WSJ, NYT or Guardian know which words are allowed for Iran and which are for Saudis.

I can only roll my eyes at this and continue to not take you seriously. First of all, you're assuming a parity between the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia. A couple of years ago, I would have been more sympathetic to this point, but with Iran's brutal crackdown of late, which apparently includes widespread rape of women in prisons, I think it's safe to say the Regime is accomplishing the impressive feat of makin…

> Iran's brutal crackdown of late

We only know about Iran's brutal crackdown of late from western NGOs and their thralls. Heck, most of Iranians themselves are likely getting these news from these sources, and not from direct or second order witnesses.

Meanwhile, we never seem to hear anything about Saudi Arabia. No crackdowns, no police brutality, no dress code enforcement. Yes, we do hear "criticisms of SA government", but that is a far cry from full throttle inciting of rebellions and then covering these rebellions 24/7, by the means of media.

I'm not saying that Iran is a nice country to live if you are a young woman. It's just that in Saudi Arabia they could not even drive until very recently.

A "double-standard held among the Western public at large" is the conspiracy I'm talking about. You don't need to have any evil puppeteers if your media are obedient to the sufficient extent and if self-proclaimed critical thinking experts are in fact mental gymnastics experts.

I'm also wondering how much do you need to be paid to be content about not being treated as a person.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#249
post #136
post #112

Well deserved. Iran has so much potential. It's extremely sad how a small group of extremists holds the entire country hostage.

Genuine question, doesn't the ultra-orthodox wing reflect the popular opinion of the country ? My understanding is that Iran has among the greatest Urban-Rural divides in the world, and that the rural population is large enough to democratically force their conservative views onto the urban population. Turkey seems to be in a similar position, but their proximity to NATO and Europe keeps them somewhat grounded. > sma…

GAMAAN has provided insight into Iranian opinions with intelligent polling and verification methods that correct for the Islamic theocratic regime's authoritarian control over society. The coles notes are that the majority of Iranians do NOT support the Islamic regime, are not religious and do not support the theocratic laws and regulations such as enforced hijab and other gender apartheid measures currently in place against Iranian women.

This video explains their methodology and results: https://youtu.be/YONfg85gPU4?t=4341

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-g...

https://gamaan.org/survey-reports/

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#250
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question, doesn't the ultra-orthodox wing reflect the popular opinion of the country ? My understanding is that Iran has among the greatest Urban-Rural divides in the world, and that the rural population is large enough to democratically force their conservative views onto the urban population. Turkey seems to be in a similar position, but their proximity to NATO and Europe keeps them somewhat grounded. > sma…

Iran's Supreme leader and guardian council have ultimate veto power over all legislation and candidates. In the past decade, there have been massive nationwide protests almost annually, often with election fairness as a theme. The Iranian military has a special wing, the IRGC, that is dedicated to the Supreme leader and used to crush protest or dissent. These are not characteristics of a functioning liberal democracy…

What you write is correct, except for this part:

The IRGC is not a 'special wing' of the Iranian military. They are a completely separate organization which has no equivalency in Western societies or defense departments.

The IRGC is tasked with protecting and spreading Khomeini's brand of Islamic theocracy throughout the world. This is why you see Iranian proxies in Yemen, Nigeria, Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, etc.

The Iranian military is tasked with protecting the Iranian nation and people. The military is a lower priority and less funded that IRGC, especially since the IRGC is a major actor in Iran's economy via various bonyads.

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