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Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#241

Post by hythloday »

tomjen3 wrote: post #214
efsavage wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"company culture" is what she was trying to fix. If someone has a TWSS bot, I'm guessing there are some more serious bias issues, perhaps like the author said, that people aren't even aware of. "because they tend to be" is the type of excuse/rationalization that starts these problems. Of course men, on average, are stronger, but 99% of the time a woman can help you just as well. Making a decision based on someone's g…

You say fix, I say she tried to destroy it. They had fun, what right does she have to ruin it?

Where do you, personally, draw the line between "company culture" and "unacceptable working practices"? Serious question.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#242

Post by spindritf »

unalone wrote: post #176
batista wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That being said, it's sad that I could actually see someone really believing this. That being said, and this being the internet, do you realize how silly you look to other cultures that don't give a flying duck about those so-called issues, and can take a joke? (And it's not like people from those other cultures don't worry about the larger issues re: equality, sexism etc, it's that "that's what she said" it's NOT wh…

Yet another common trope in gender discussions is this idea that people shouldn't complain about sexism because there are more important things to worry about. We are complex machines that are capable of worrying about multiple cultural issues at a time. This is an issue. If there are things you'd rather us focus on, write a blog post, start a thread, make something. Don't try and derail this one, because it's releva…

> Yet another common trope in gender discussions is this idea that people shouldn't complain about sexism because there are more important things to worry about.

But Batista is complaining about (what he at least suggests to be) sexism, just in another area with more serious consequences.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#243

Post by sp332 »

schmichael wrote: post #233
tomjen3 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is this: It was the company culture to have fun with a joke aimed at nobody in particular (sex is not sexistic). A bad, unfunny joke but a joke nontheless. One person decieded she did like it and ruined it for everybody. If you show up to a frat house party and don't like it, do you demand that the others change their behavior to something that isn't rude or do you leave? She essentially demanded that everyb…

Did you just compare a workplace to a frat house party? Unreal...

Its an analogy, not a comparison. Different workplaces have different cultures and different standards of behavior. Startups in particular are known for having unique work environments, and how well you fit into the culture of any business is an important part of determining if you should be hired there. e.g. http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2010/09/how-t...

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#244

Post by rayiner »

tomjen3 wrote: post #163
wpietri wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! Also, what's up with Miss Manners suggesting other ways for people to be polite? Why is she keeping me down with her "chew with your mouth closed" and "use the toilet paper, not the hand towels" bullshit! No one can police me! The constitution say so! I DO WHAT I WANT! Or, and I'm just thinking out loud here, we could recognize that, especially in professional contexts, we actually want to behave towards our col…

There is a difference -- you can ignore miss manners if you want (at your peril) in this case you have the room equivalent of a screaming maniac yell at you (politely) each time you do something wrong. And yes if you had that in real life, it would be considered rude.

You can ignore miss manners, but you cannot ignore the guy in the room constantly making sexist jokes. If that guy finds an opposite response of equal magnitude annoying, well that's some shoe on the other foot shit right there.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#245

Post by wpietri »

tomjen3 wrote: post #220
wpietri wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! Startup cofounder here. Working in and with startups since Web 0.8. I see you're a student, so I want to take the time to be clear: Suppose you worked at my startup. Suppose further that you suggested to one of your colleagues, as you did now, that they quit because they weren't inclined to put up with what they saw as a hostile work environment. You know who would be gone? You. Startups are a team sport. We don'…

I see that I need to update my bio... The reason I am so pissed is that I work in a company where we do things and make jokes that would get you kicked out the door in most suit companies and everybody enjoys it -- including the girls (who are often the best) -- and yes there is the guy who doesn't find it funny to change his screen, so we don't. To him. If he finds it obnoxious that we make those jokes with others,…

This seems to be a reiteration of the same point: you believe that if somebody finds the work environment hostile, it's ok to pressure them to leave. You're really not seeing anything wrong with that?

I'd also question your belief that "the girls" (who are, I take it, 8-12 years old) are ok with it. Go talk to some people in the field who have had a few jobs but aren't stereotypical. E.g., gay, female, or black. Ask them if they've ever laughed at something that made them uncomfortable because they wanted to fit in and felt unsafe doing anything else. Because you're ok with pushing out somebody if they don't like the joke, guess what: if they don't like the joke, they'll still pretend to you that they do.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#246

Post by mcherm »

tomjen3 wrote: post #220
wpietri wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! Startup cofounder here. Working in and with startups since Web 0.8. I see you're a student, so I want to take the time to be clear: Suppose you worked at my startup. Suppose further that you suggested to one of your colleagues, as you did now, that they quit because they weren't inclined to put up with what they saw as a hostile work environment. You know who would be gone? You. Startups are a team sport. We don'…

I see that I need to update my bio... The reason I am so pissed is that I work in a company where we do things and make jokes that would get you kicked out the door in most suit companies and everybody enjoys it -- including the girls (who are often the best) -- and yes there is the guy who doesn't find it funny to change his screen, so we don't. To him. If he finds it obnoxious that we make those jokes with others,…

Since everyone in your company enjoys this attitude, it's nothing but good, clean fun (or good dirty fun, depending on the color of the joke).

But someday you may hire someone who, as it turns out, does not appreciate the jokes. Or perhaps, like Jessamyn, enjoys the jokes sometimes but feels that they are overdone to the point of being irritating.

I would not advice you to tell this person "If [you] find it obnoxious [... you can] deal with it or leave." Because in the US (I can't speak for other places) that is illegal. If this sort of behavior is pervasive it is said to "create a hostile (or offensive) work environment", and if someone is fired (or effectively forced to leave) because they do not enjoy the behavior then they are well within their rights to sue your company.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#247

Post by Lockyy »

batista wrote: post #231
batista wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Yes, quick quick, down-vote the heretic -- we haven't progressed much from Salem, have we?) >Important things like women making less money than men, being more subjected to media objectification, being the target of laws that want to deny them rights because we still have a problem accepting that women are exactly equal to us? Funny how you seem to have the missed the part where I SPECIFICALLY write: " It's not like…

>Your deciding what is and isn't important for women to care about is a perfect example of privilege. What privilege exactly? The privilege of sharing my opinion on HN and getting down-voted for it? I thought "privilege" was a concept related to power, what happened to that notion? Women, like men, also care about BS. Non-issues, stupid issues, moral non-issues, religious hard-lines, the latest celeb gossip, some fad…

One thing that bothers me about any and all up-vote/down-vote systems is exactly what has happened to Batista. He expresses an opinion that is contrary to what other people are saying and he gets down-voted into oblivion. This just feeds into the creation of a culture bubble and never lets anyone in the communities views get challenged.

As a side note, I would like to clarify that my view on the issue is: A) Not relevant to the point I'm bringing up; and B) Not the same as Batista's. However, nor is it the same as anyone else’s in this discussion. (It's worrying that I have to clarify this for fear of being down-voted like him. I should not have to sit here and worry that I will get branded a sexist for not just mindlessly hitting down-vote on him. This is a horrible trend that needs to stop.)

I'll be down-voted myself anyway for even daring to defend someone’s right to express their opinion however. You get given a down-vote at a high karma so that you can use it against spammers and not just to use it on people you disagree with.

So god damn it learn to argue with people properly instead of just trying to silence them.

Edit: Also, down-voting people as you disagree with them verbally is like gagging them whilst you debate them. It doesn't convince anyone, it just angers them and sets them in their ways more.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#248

Post by bmelton »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #123
bmelton wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it okay if we object to her behavior based on the "Two rights don't make a wrong" rule, or is that somehow also hypocritical.

It's not okay because it (1) assumes a false equivalence - the actual counts are more like "a wrong versus a hundred million wrongs" (2) it puts a burden on the victim of sexism to be perfect, while putting no such burden on the sexists (3) it's a variation on victim-blaming.

I knew when I posted that comment that it would get downvoted, but I honestly don't know when or how "They're bugging me so I'm going to 'take the high road' and bug them back" became acceptable behavior.

If it was something my daughter had done, she'd be in trouble for it, but because she has somehow appealed to the vigilante in everyone, while trumpeting the almighty PC agenda of sexism, she's apparently justified in being just as much an asshole as her tormentors.

The irony of course being that of course people would treat her as having done "the right thing", because she was "the victim". Just the same as people root for the guy who hacked Sony, or for whatever random "little guy" stands up for whatever negatively though of "big baddie."

It still doesn't make it right, and we're supposed to have learned that lesson by the second grade.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#249

Post by rayiner »

hythloday wrote: post #16

"It has been fascinating to watch the ongoing reactions. There have been complaints that we have too many bots in the channel now. There have been complaints about it spamming the channel. There were several “Make them shut up!” responses. These are not reactions I have seen the other bots elicit, certainly not with such intensity. One person even complained about the name being too long, though to his credit he real…

> Stuff that doesn't bother you (that another poster here describes as being "tuned-out"), as a man, because your gender plays no part in your job, is experienced differently by your female colleagues

This is an insightful observation. Guys often like to think that they're much better at taking sexist jokes directed their way. "I have no problem when a commercial makes fun of a guy's inability to do housework!" they say. It's easy to "lighten up" about things that don't actually affect your life. I wonder how guys would react to women constantly making jokes about legitimately sore subjects for men. The stereotypes of men as rapists and child molesters, for example. Men don't seem to "lighten up" so easily when those subjects are brought up.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#250

Post by nemetroid »

ElliotMingee wrote: post #118
unalone wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the woman is only talking because she's in bed is what makes her a sexual object. The shes of this world say a whole lot more than cheesy bedroom euphemisms, you know. But the joke is situated on the premise that it's cool to brag about what a man's made a woman say while fucking her, or, its opposite, that it's embarrassing and unmanly if a woman's been disappointed by a man in the bedroom. In either c…

>"The fact that the woman is only talking because she's in bed" Maybe that joke is told differently where you're from, but I can't imagine how one could take that away from "that's what she said." Ignoring that both of our fictional characters in this scenario are in bed, the idea behind the joke is to make fun of innocent phrases that could be considered sexual. Not that it's cool to brag about what a man's made a w…

The fact that the subtexts weren't intended doesn't mean they aren't there, though.
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