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Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

matrix.org

241–250 of 283 posts

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of criticism of XMPP with regards to fragmentation and extensions can be applied to Matrix as well. In fact, the sliding sync itself already fragments the ecosystem by not being supported out of the box by many server implementations and therefore homeservers. Encryption often has to be enabled with some machinations as well if we're talking about clients other than Element (and electron-based). On the other han…

This criticism kinda misses the point. E2EE, especially for group chats, is _the_ reason to use Matrix. It's an extremely hard problem, and you'll basically need to replicate what Matrix does if you want to solve it. Doubly so when you add federation. It required more than one iteration of Matrix to get it right, which I (personally) totally expected to happen. I don't think XMPP will _ever_ get it right. Regarding c…

Could you elaborate on how XMPP sucks on mobile for you? I mostly use it on mobile

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#242
post #57

Techy friend group of mine migrated from Discord to a self-hosted private Matrix server a few months back. No complaints so far, although we didn't use Discord's voice/video/screen-sharing features (which I hear that Matrix intends to support eventually). UX-wise, it made me appreciate the distinction between Discord's "everyone is subscribed to every channel in a server by default" stance, and IRC/Matrix's opposite…

How did your friend convince your friend group to migrate over to Matrix? I’ve thought about setting up one but my group isn’t so much into the “do it yourself techies” or privacy conscious crowd.

The tech skill requirements are fairly low if someone hosts a homeserver everyone joins, or everyone joins a public.

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#243
post #57

Techy friend group of mine migrated from Discord to a self-hosted private Matrix server a few months back. No complaints so far, although we didn't use Discord's voice/video/screen-sharing features (which I hear that Matrix intends to support eventually). UX-wise, it made me appreciate the distinction between Discord's "everyone is subscribed to every channel in a server by default" stance, and IRC/Matrix's opposite…

How did your friend convince your friend group to migrate over to Matrix? I’ve thought about setting up one but my group isn’t so much into the “do it yourself techies” or privacy conscious crowd.

As mentioned, this group is composed of techies who have an innate distrust of proprietary platforms, and the Reddit debacle (following so close on the heels of Twitter's ongoing debacles) was enough to tip the scales against continuing to operate the Discord. For groups of non-techies who care about convenience over all else, sadly I just think you're going to have to wait (or contribute yourself!) until Element/Matrix adds more UX polish.

That said, one thing that did help a lot was having the server host a default client. Anyone can still connect to the server using any client they want, but now they can also go to the server's URL and get a good client without any hassle. We chose Cinny as the default client because it's solid and extremely familiar to any Discord users.

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the group in control of the spec, the reference server, the most popular client, & the biggest server is the same entity is problem enough as it is for control/decentralization. Branding it top to bottom as Matrix would be the beginning of the end to me.

Matrix federation is inherently too centralized to my taste. You always rely on a server and a domain name. HN geeks can run their own server but still depend on ICANN down the line.

Username checks out :)

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#245
post #2

I always get so confused by the naming between Matrix and Element. I get that Element is the client, but I honestly thought that the name Matrix for the server (or is it just the standard for the protocol?) was sunset. Great service though and hope if gets UX improvements too, as Discord and Slack keep getting more clutter.

I just feel like the use of linear algebra terminology pollutes search results. Maybe they should have named it Passta/Meetball or some unique dumb name, and continued the naming scheme after satirical religions (Church of the Subgenius -> Slack, Discordianism -> Discord, Pastafarianism -> Meetball), like name the protocol Passta (maybe figure out a backronym for it), and the client software "Meetball".

The use of math terms is intentional.

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#246
post #2

I always get so confused by the naming between Matrix and Element. I get that Element is the client, but I honestly thought that the name Matrix for the server (or is it just the standard for the protocol?) was sunset. Great service though and hope if gets UX improvements too, as Discord and Slack keep getting more clutter.

Matrix = email. Element = Thunderbird, Outlook, etc.

The Matrix name has never budged since the beginning of the project. One of the Matrix servers is called Synapse. Others include Conduit or Dendrite (see https://matrix.org/ecosystem/servers/).

So yes, Matrix is the protocol, not the/a server.

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#247
post #2

I always get so confused by the naming between Matrix and Element. I get that Element is the client, but I honestly thought that the name Matrix for the server (or is it just the standard for the protocol?) was sunset. Great service though and hope if gets UX improvements too, as Discord and Slack keep getting more clutter.

Yeah. I still think that the Matrix.org Foundation should have a branded client, simply called “Matrix”, available in all the major app stores. Lock it to the matrix.org server and offer membership in the foundation as an in-app purchase. Could help with some of their recent funding issues.

Do you think email should have a branded client, simply called "email" available in all the major app stores? Or XMPP have a branded client, simply called "XMPP" etc.?

Align on a protocol, experiment and compete with clients is a good way to make progress.

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#248
post #64
post #18

It's quite disappointing that there's huge ongoing work around reinventing clients from scratch where the basic functionality of not ringing all my devices while I'm using only one of them [1] is still not there (bug open for years), despite it being a pretty simple fix. [1] https://github.com/vector-im/element-meta/issues/360

Is it really that simple though? Jabber tried to be smart about which device to ring, and sometimes someone ended up with a missed notification. I always felt gutting that complexity and ring all instead would have been the more robust way.

What about P2P multicasting between devices? Delay for 1 second, if you get an "I did the beep for message hash X" notice in that time from a higher priority device that is currently being looked at, don't.

A bit of a privacy leak on shared networks revealing which IP is doing messaging, but it should be fast and reliable.

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just set it up. Wasn't that difficult: 1. Added a new postgres db and user 2. Added a new dns name 3. Added a new cert for the new dns name 4. Added a new vhost to nginx to proxy to a new port using the new dns name and cert 5. Added a simple docker-compose to my config 6. Added a snippet to my .well-known/matrix/client Don't imagine it will take much maintenance. Container will be updated along with the rest of my…

The most important thing is to keep it updated, as we're fairly rapidly iterating on it, and most of the Element X bugs we've seen have actually turned out to be a stale Sliding Sync proxy deployment. Glad it was fairly straightforward.

Agree... i don't think there's a time i have "docker compose pull" and a new version hasn't come up.

The fact that this is independent of any server implementation (read Synapse) means you can release much more frequent.

Choosing to use a proxy here was the right decision.

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#250
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IIUC Jabber never really had decentralized group chats? Jaber had something like that 5 years before Matrix: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0289.html but decided it wasn't an avenue worth pursuing, as a non-issue in practice. This is further proven by WhatsApp (which is based on XMPP/ejabberd) and its billion active users: you don't have to shove this complexity into the protocol level when it runs natively on a d…

> you don't have to shove this complexity into the protocol level when it runs natively on a distributed/federated infrastructure But I don't want to trust my community to someone providing me infrastructure. Lots of projects, communities or whatever start small on third-party hosting. Many open source projects right now have rooms on gitter.im or matrix.org. I don't think they made a "bad" choice and I don't think t…

>> you don't have to shove this complexity into the protocol level when it runs natively on a distributed/federated infrastructure

> But I don't want to trust my community to someone providing me infrastructure.

I mean, that's always the case in the end, isn't it? Your identity is tied to your server, and that's pretty much what defines the whole thing as being a federation and not P2P (that applies equally for XMPP as for Matrix). As long as migrating from provider to provider is easy and convenient (which amounts to acknowledging that all providers eventually come and go, what centralized service users are in denial about), I don't see it as being a fundamental issue.

It's also easier to mitigate this aspect in XMPP-world where being your own provider is orders of magnitude easier and cheaper compared to running a matrix homeserver and federating at scale.

Also, talking about infrastructure, the situation is quite worrisome in the case of Matrix, I'd say: only one entity is competent enough (or has enough cash committed) to running large-scale: new vector. And it runs that of matrix.org, kde.org, fedora.org, mozilla.org, …. It also happens to be the one specifying and implementing the (incompletely documented) protocol, conveniently.

>> In practice the room survives in a "split brain" mode where different users see different participants

> Even if this is true (I haven't see it when servers go offline) this sounds like a bug that can be improved over time. Not a reason to give up.

It's a very very hard problem to crack. They've been at it for 10 years across many iterations of the protocol: https://telegra.ph/why-not-matrix-08-07 . I like to think that it can be solved the same way I want to have closure about P=NP, but I also challenge that this is a meaningful and practical approach in this context.

> This is true, as I said users are federated and suffer if their homeserver goes down. But it is a huge difference to be able to set up a second account on a second server and continue participating rather than needing to convince a large group of people to switch to a different room.

Yup, and that's all pretty and neat in theory. In practice it happens every so often that rooms just break for inexplicable reasons, and that people must migrate anyway. Not all members do, because for some, everything still looks like business as usual (happened again few months ago with the 3D Printing space), and trust me, this is much more eventful and disruptive than freenode committing seppuku once every quarter century, or with large XMPP networks going under.

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