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Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

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Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#241

Post by visarga »

kneebonian wrote: post #12

No the problem goes thusly. The university was a place of learning, education, and becoming a better person. It was focused on the pursuit of knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Then it became noticed that smart educated people went to college, and so the idea then became if you went to college you to must be smart and educated. Then because that was accepted as true many people saw college as the path to a better l…

> The university was a place of learning, education, and becoming a better person.

Religious studies in other words. That was the purpose of the first universities, to educate religious brass.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#242

Post by TheRealPomax »

endisneigh wrote: post #122
TheRealPomax wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theories on how to interview and triage people, but few approaches beat the cost-benefit of supporting decisions based on a degree from a solid institution. That's... a bullshit argument, and should get called out as bullshit? It's an easy approach, and beats other app…

> In fact, most high achievers are bad fits for most jobs, because their intention is to not be in that job for long. citation needed. (plot twist, this is not true).

I'm okay with using anecdotal data to refute anecdotes. So, source: me, I've seen loads of high achievers come in, get promoted, stick around for half a year, then job hop to the next company in order to "start without baggage" but at a higher rung.

(And of course, while it should go without saying, it very much needs saying because people are very bad at logic: that doesn't mean I claimed that no high achievers stick around, and it also doesn't mean I claimed that people who do stick around are low achievers. Reading the latter would require making not just one but _two_ mistakes)

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#243

Post by whywhywouldyou »

laidoffamazon wrote: post #236
BearOso wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree that the legacy and nepotism needs to be dropped. But there's some caveats to consider: * It's partly about where your kids graduated valedictorian with perfect GPAs, etc. I was considered "gifted" in my district, but I would be below average in the greater scheme of things. * Top 99% of SAT is nothing. I read somewhere that 60% of Ivy applicants have perfect scores. * It depends on the major they int…

> but I would be below average in the greater scheme of things. Which scheme of things is this? > Top 99% of SAT is nothing. I got 99pct on my SAT too (1500/1600). I didnt have a chance at a top school. What do you suggest people like me do now? I went to an undergrad with a 50% acceptance rate, not exactly UIUC CS. I can't sleep most days because I don't feel like I have anything to hope for.

Sounds like you need a serious adjustment on your world view if you currently believe you don't have anything to hope for simply because you and your 1500 SAT score didn't get into an elite school.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#244

Post by [deleted] »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #204
amluto wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “Harvard exists to make society less meritocratic” idea is repeated a couple of times, and the article doesn’t seem to make any argument at all that it’s correct. An alternative hypothesis, entirely consistent with the author’s arguments, is that Harvard exists to educate its students (and to do research and have fancy sports and pretty buildings and cultural events, etc), that it’s quite good at this but not nec…

> Harvard ... gating function developed over time and is unfortunate. You're not quite arguing that it doesn't do that gating function. "The purpose of a system is what it does"

[deleted]

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#245

Post by gojomo »

glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

Harvard's not purely private: it receives massive structural tax advantages, & lots of government funding via many kinds of tuition & research subsidies.

Harvard's supposed "excellent reputation" is significantly maintained by the cartel of graduates from it, & its close peers, preferentially touting, publishing, hiring, and funding class-similar people – even when they are no better on objective measures than non-graduates.

Your hiring observation is nearly fully driven not by Harvard providing any "educational lift", specific to its educational product, that would justify its state-granted advantages, but simply by Harvard getting "early pick" (pre-career) to place its brand on people who are already talented, ambitious, or highly-prepared before they arrive at Harvard.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#246

Post by edgyquant »

dublinben wrote: post #57
Xeoncross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note, I consider paying for toll roads to be a form of health insurance. I know the newest teen drivers out cruising with their friends aren't paying $6 to race each other down the toll road and likely crash with me. I've seen some crazy stuff on the freeways and much safer driving on toll roads.

Now imagine how much even more safe you’d all be if you were riding on a train, and those youths were harmlessly racing each other on bikes on a nearby separated bike path.

Now imagine how much safer you’d all be if you stayed home and never went anywhere. This is a ridiculously regressive argument.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#247

Post by adifgoi0nio »

tlb wrote: post #226

You could base a society on randomly selecting people at a young age to be elite. It would still have advantages over a society with no elites at all. The goal of having an elite class is to make better collective decisions about how society should organize itself. Decisions are best made by people with the best information, and elites (regardless of any intrinsic merit) have better information. By virtue of being el…

>No society has tried selecting random people in adulthood to put in charge.

This is a practice called 'sordition'. As evidenced by the fact it has a name and a Wikipedia article, it is not something you just invented. It was famously used in Athens and is how American juries are selected today,

I think I would support a revival of sordition. Perhaps we could start small, perhaps by selecting one representative for each state at random.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#249

Post by chimprich »

rayiner wrote: post #211
glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

> This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. It’s not, and I think your view ignores a really important fact about our society. Ownership of wealth in America is relatively diffuse. The top 1% owns only 32% of the wealth. And even the top 1%, which starts at about $12 million net worth, covers a lot of people who aren’t exactly the ownership class. Much of the power in society is therefore held by a…

> Ownership of wealth in America is relatively diffuse. The top 1% owns only 32% of the wealth.

"Relatively"? According to what metric? I think the US has one of the world's highest Gini coefficients, at least among Western countries.

"Only"? 1% owning about a third of all wealth seems remarkably skewed.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#250

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

louthy wrote: post #195
glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

> I've seen dozens of theories on how to interview and triage people, but few approaches beat the cost-benefit of supporting decisions based on a degree from a solid institution. This is my exact opposite experience. Degrees are meaningless unless you've literally just left college. Even then, it tells you their scores in particular subjects, it does not tell you their attitude, work ethic, general problem solving ab…

Not all jobs require attitude, work ethic and problem solving ability. Some require skills like dress sense, eloquence, table manners, and a refined taste in fine wine and art.
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