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We are all animals at night

hazlitt.net

241–250 of 295 posts

Re: We are all animals at night

#241
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, travel, and housing and custody later. Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. I'd even say (at least in TV shows and movies) men are expected to be the funny ones and provide entertaining values in a relationship. I'm…

> Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, travel, and housing and custody later. Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. I'd even say (at least in TV shows and movies) men are expected to be the funny ones and provide entertaining values in a relationship. Do…

>actually being a pleasant person.

That is actually a classic "nice guy" trope. Women want a guy who is confident in stating his attraction to them and who doesn't dwell too much before asking her out or after being rejected. Being "pleasant" only works if you naturally meet a lot of women and the woman asks you out. The reason for that is that platonic friendships physically take up time and limit the number of women you can meet. If you have five female friends, the likelyhood of one of them being attracted to you is practically zero, because the number is way too small. Nobody is going to have a hundred female friends so that one of them is going to ask you out. The economics of male dating just don't allow it to happen.

>Basically: your list entirely excludes the right of the other person to...be a person.

How exactly did you come up with this response? Honestly, it feels like you copy pasted it from somewhere else and are now responding out of context.

How does splitting the bill dehumanise "the other person"?

Re: We are all animals at night

#242
post #205
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, travel, and housing and custody later. Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. I'd even say (at least in TV shows and movies) men are expected to be the funny ones and provide entertaining values in a relationship. Do…

The "for free" part is what I disagree with because it's almost totally the opposite of what I've seen. Men are taught that their work is valuable but they are not; they feel entitled after putting in work, even if it's work that nobody asked for, like going to the gym a lot or chatting up strangers at bus stops. No, they're not actually entitled to sex and attention, but the entire problem is that men feel like they…

Your comment is complete nonsense.

Men go to the gym for themselves and secondarily, because it raises their attractiveness and confidence in front of everyone, not just women. They chat up strangers at bus stops, because dating is a literal lottery for the guy.

Re: We are all animals at night

#243
post #57

I worked long months in the forestry industry (re-planting trees) during university it’s not so tough as sex work but sometimes people throw it in the bag of “low-skill” or “manual labour” jobs as if thought or critical thinking we’re not required. I have to say now working a “real” job now (for salary benefits etc.) I know way more forestry folks who could do my job today (consulting) than current coworkers who coul…

There is such a thing as low-skill labour. Nobody said 'no skill required'. The term is low-skill.

Of the people I have met that do manual labouring jobs, I know many people could do those jobs if they got fit and learnt to do them, and that those people could not learn to do intellectual work no matter how hard they tried.

Also working in the forestry industry is much harder than having sex for a living.

Re: We are all animals at night

#244
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if this was true, then why do office workers generally earn more?

This made me laugh out loud, at the sheer political naivete. Office workers earn more because they do jobs more similar to the jobs of those who allocate money.

No they don't. They earn more because their jobs are in more demand and there their skills are in lower supply.

Re: We are all animals at night

#245
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if this was true, then why do office workers generally earn more?

> I mean, if this was true, then why do office workers generally earn more? Because the work (1) takes particular skills, and (2) skills that are functionally gatekept so they are disproportionately found in people coming from a middle class (or, at minimum, proletarian intelligentsia) background. It has work that is (compared to lots of more poorly paid jobs) hard to find people minimally qualified to do, but its no…

Yes, the work takes more skills. It is not 'functionally gatekept'.

Re: We are all animals at night

#246
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if this was true, then why do office workers generally earn more?

Who earned more, the architect for the pharaohs pyramid or the people pushing one of the massive slabs of rock? Which job was harder?

The question was which job required more skill. And the answer is very clearly: the architect's.

Re: We are all animals at night

#247
post #28

This is very well written and gripping even. I don’t see the negatives other commenters are pointing out. Yes she’s talking about her perceptions born from her clients and years worked. That’s an absolute right for all of us, right? To simply relate the experiences we’ve had. She’s definitely seen a side of humanity that, while seen by many, doesn’t quite often get public visibility-sunlight. And lo and behold, it’s…

> May this serve as a good reminder to treat all people with decency and an amount of respect if not kindness. There’s exactly one right way to treat a person, as a person-an end unto his/it/herself.

And in the scenario where that if you have a neighbor who decides to have his apartment windows open and TV on loud till 3am? I've tried speaking to him, wrote him a letter, yet he's ignored all. I'm now looking in to taking him to court.

I always hold respect for everything and everyone, but the naivety is wearing thin, and I start to disagree. If you start and continue to disobey the rules of common decency, consideration frankly you don't deserve nice or respect.

If we lived in a truly harmonic world where problems could be squished with respect, kindness; sure. Otherwise it's moot and that line is a puff piece that falls on it's feet leaving yourself to suffer while you accept that they can get away with the conflicts.

Sure, you could say this is the most respectful option than say smashing down the door and smashing the TV with a hammer.

Re: We are all animals at night

#248
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike sex work, my “good” jobs didn’t threaten to overthrow traditional power structures. Many sex workers, including myself, have long hypothesized that the reason so many people in power work to keep the commercial sex trade marginalized is because they’re threatened by it—by the idea that it’s the only field where women outearn men, that it’s an industry where women get to call the shots, and that women profit of…

i actually agree with this sentiment quite strongly. part of the reason gender identity and dysphoria, queerness, and fluid gender roles are so despised by conservatives and religious fellows, especially when it comes to masculinity, is that it threatens the dominant power structure of the last few thousand years. sex work, and women’s empowerment is especially looked down upon. what else is labour but selling your b…

> i actually agree with this sentiment quite strongly. part of the reason gender identity and dysphoria, queerness, and fluid gender roles are so despised by conservatives and religious fellows, especially when it comes to masculinity, is that it threatens the dominant power structure of the last few thousand years.

No, it's because it's all total mental delusion, and we stand up for the truth above coddling people who should be receiving mental health treatment. You cannot be half a man and half a woman unless you're in the tiny proportion of people with an intersex genetic disorder. It has nothing to do with power structure and nothing to do with religion.

>sex work, and women’s empowerment is especially looked down upon. what else is labour but selling your body, yet somehow a woman is a slut to be shamed, and simultaneously the object of sexual desire.

Prostitution is despised because it is fundamentally exploitative of everyone involved, and bad for the stability of society. The origins of the taboo probably also involve the very high level of venereal disease that accompanied it until very recently. And it's not like that problem has been entirely solved either.

>men need these latent structured in place to remain a) powerful and b) keep their sense of worth and identity.

Delusional.

>why else is being gay or “throwing like a girl” insults every western boy heard in the 90s?

Boys don't want to be seen as girlish for the same reason that girls in the 90s (and the 2000s, and the 2010s, and probably the 2020s too, by the way) don't want to be seen as boyish. When boys go through puberty they are competing with each other to be masculine. When girls go through puberty they are competing with each other to be feminine.

Re: We are all animals at night

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Offering some amount of consentual self-destruction is absolutely in the business of helping mankind, Prostitution, substance abuse, suicide, and other self-destructive acts, are the only measure that is available to us for enforcing that Leviathan keeps its end of the social contract: that our bodies and minds are first and foremost our own, and only when we infringe on others' freedom may ours be curtailed. The da…

Suicide is an expression of one's ultimate freedom to one's body, but these acts can have consequences beyond oneself. That goes from "oh well, it's your choice" to "don't drag other people down with you". What of a child born from a prostitute? What of others' safety when driving drunk? What of friends and family who expend mental energy and money? Cut yourself away absolutely or not at all, or perhaps in a more mea…

All that goes without saying. If you are suicidal, please seek help (so you can tell us if there is any.)

On the other hand, smashing up some proverbial deck chairs or even breaking a metaphorical Wallace Hartley arm is an acceptable way of making people acutely aware that the ship is, in fact, sinking.

>What of a child born from a prostitute

IMHO abortion belongs in the list of acts of radical bodily autonomy outlined by GP.

You should try posing that question to the kind of person that works to restrict safe access to it.

What you'll get is a reminder that a great deal of our society doesn't really understand "cause and effect" -- and are completely willing to drag down everyone else through completely socially sanctioned acts, such as political participation.

Re: We are all animals at night

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suicide is an expression of one's ultimate freedom to one's body, but these acts can have consequences beyond oneself. That goes from "oh well, it's your choice" to "don't drag other people down with you". What of a child born from a prostitute? What of others' safety when driving drunk? What of friends and family who expend mental energy and money? Cut yourself away absolutely or not at all, or perhaps in a more mea…

Yeah, that's something a rational person should do. Self destruction hardly ever is rational however, and it's near impossible to see all of the collateral damage you make when destroying yourself.

Irrationality (own or others') can trap people in situations where self-destruction is the most rational choice.

Furthermore, we have a bit of a scoping issue on our hands: we default to assuming that self-preservation is rational.

Self-preservation may be rational behavior for animals. But humans are qualitatively different from animals in at least the following aspects:

- We have language, which lets us continue our thoughts beyond the immediate moment.

- We are continuously aware of our own mortality.

In that light, many of the relatively irrational choices that we make, can still seem more rational in comparison with an alternative of just sitting around and waiting to die. (Terror minimization theory.)

It gets better. A being that exists, can suffer, dread, and die; not to mention, cause others to suffer, dread, and die. A non-existent being, on the other hand, doesn't have any problems at all. "Destruction" is just the process of going from existence to non-existence, and "self-destruction" is just an egosyntonic drive towards non-existence. You don't exactly act self-destructive because you want to exist more, quite the opposite.

So, from a thinking being's perspective, self-preservation is at least as irrational as self-destruction, if not more so. Of course, either way, people's thinking is much less rational than we give it credit for, while people's actions - much more. But this only reinforces the point: that the most rational evaluation of the question of self-destruction is simultaneously the most counterintuitive.

(Incidentally, if this line of reasoning makes sense to you, you can check out "Every Cradle is a Grave" by Sarah Perry. If it doesn't, also check it out, it probably contains a rebuttal to your first few arguments, and then you have no other choice but to really start thinking.)

>it's near impossible to see all of the collateral damage you make when destroying yourself.

It's still way easier to see than all of the collateral damage you make when not destroying yourself. See: the environment, the economy, the culture. All turned to shit, thanks to the presumably rational actions of presumably rational actors pursuing individual self-preservation and prosperity.

Which is why you see so many young people finding life hardly worth living. Some of them even revert to what they perceive as "traditional" value systems - ironically, the same ones that made life hardly worth living in the first place.

But of course the prostitutes are to blame /s

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