Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging • Hacker News Board

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#241

Post by styren » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:47 PM UTC

GeoAtreides wrote: post #200

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

I used to strongly support people getting fat. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in the US has made me think differently. Most people who get fat eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll say the nu…

Not sure what point you're trying to make here? Policymaking to limit access to unhealthy food isn't particularly controversial and if there weren't more pressing issues were I live I'd love for politicians to push it further.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#242

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:48 PM UTC

minsc_and_boo wrote: post #123

morkalork wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without legal sales, cartels will keep doing cartel things. Also where will money for treatment programs come from? It will always be at risk of being cut by fiscally conservative governments, vs legal sales that can be taxed to fund amelioration efforts.

Even with legal sales, there are still black markets for drugs, as is evident with marijuana: https://apnews.com/article/business-california-los-angeles-m...

What are the sizes of those black markets? They're tiny, and limit the violence they do (since customers are willing to pay a slight premium for peace).

Hell, if it was legalized, we could limit the price by law... cost + 2% (or whatever margin the pharmaceutical companies would need to not refuse). They would out-compete the cartels in weeks.

Pretending that the black markets would remain to any great degree is just disingenuous.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#243

Post by collaborative » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:48 PM UTC

ddingus wrote: post #187

collaborative wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem as I see it is that any "treatment" requires the addict wanting to be treated You could argue that the Taliban are the government that cares the most about addicts, because they are actually making addicts change the way a parent corrects a child But addicts are grown ups with free will

Truth and I would change that statement just a bit: Any * successful * treatment requires the patient to want treatment. In addition, the triggers for it all need to be addressed. Those can be: Simple pain, trauma More complex financial issues, housing, etc... PTSD of various kinds, war, abuse and the like. Without a plan to address triggers and desire to be done with it all, treatment success is extremely unlikely.

I agree but I find it is actually harder to recover when the focus is on finding the reasons for addiction

We are fallen creatures and simply accepting our fallen nature might be more productive

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#244

Post by chimeracoder » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:49 PM UTC

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #134

kelnos wrote: post #5

https://archive.is/rznQr We've plainly seen over the past several decades that the War on Drugs is an abject failure. All it's done is increase incarceration rates (without solving the problems of drug use and addiction), and many people caught in the system are just drug users, not distributors/traffickers. This really doesn't help much of anything. > State leaders have acknowledged faults with the policy’s implemen…

Is the war on drugs a failure in Singapore too? I mean, it is self-evidently obvious that at some level of enforcement, you can actually control the problem. The question then is whether we are willing to tolerate the level of enforcement necessary. Is the cure worse than the disease? That is a real question and a worthy one, but pretending that no tradeoff exists is just silly.

> Is the war on drugs a failure in Singapore too?

Considering that thousands of people are arrested for drug possession every year in Singapore, to say nothing of the number of people who use drugs in Singapore and avoid legal action, then yes.

> The question then is whether we are willing to tolerate the level of enforcement necessary.

Drug use is rampant even inside prisons, which are literally the most surveilled and draconian environments on the planet. If a carceral approach to preventing drug use doesn't work even within prisons, what makes anyone think it can work in society at large, even if people were willing to turn all of society into a police state?

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#245

Post by anon84873628 » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:49 PM UTC

sharperguy wrote: post #8

I always thought decriminalization was in some ways the worst of both worlds. On one hand, keeping the production and trade side illegal continues to perpetuate the underground culture and fund international cartels. Meanwhile their market base increases due to fewer people being afraid of being caught, the product quality is still completely unregulated. Users still need to stay embedded in an an unscrupulous underw…

That's probably true. Decriminalization is an imperfect first step that can be taken unilaterally by the executive branch while the legislative is deadlocked. In time society grows accustomed to decriminalization and the true legalization is more feasible.

In California the decriminalization of magic mushrooms has caused lots more people to start growing them, so price, quality, and diversity are better than ever. That probably wouldn't be the case with other drugs that aren't as easy to produce just anywhere. Although opium poppy field or coca greenhouses are definitely possible.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#246

Post by brightlancer » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:50 PM UTC

01100011 wrote: post #40

wonderwonder wrote: post #36

If you decriminalize hard drugs, all that happens is that addicts stay addicts, have a higher likely hood of becoming homeless and higher chance of dying. Hard drugs for the most part outside of controlled environments have almost no positive qualities. Drugs like cannabis have medical attributes and can provide benefits. People addicted to hard drugs require treatment, leaving them to their own devices is likely to…

I hate to be that HN guy who nitpicks an otherwise spot-on comment, but anyway... One correction: many opiate users, yes, even heroin users, can be functional members of society. There are many folks you would never know use H, at least until they accidentally get some fentanyl and die. Same thing with meth(which is actually a prescription medication). I'll say that there is always a very high probability that some l…

To add, I've known many folks who were infrequent users of cocaine, about once or twice a year during holidays or parties or the like.

I also knew one person who worked in finance and EVERYONE did coke; he wasn't addicted and stopped using when he switched fields (he hated the 80h weeks).

These anecdotes contrasted heavily with my experience in the Bronx in the 80s, where drug users were overwhelmingly drug abusers and generally awful people. I still won't use recreational drugs (other than caffeine and alcohol) but I don't judge people who do.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#247

Post by alphanullmeric » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:51 PM UTC

Like with most things, I would strongly support decriminalizing all drugs on the condition that other people are not held responsible, financially or otherwise, for the actions of drug users. Your body your choice, my money my choice.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#248

Post by tomp » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:52 PM UTC

GeoAtreides wrote: post #200

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

I used to strongly support people getting fat. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in the US has made me think differently. Most people who get fat eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll say the nu…

People should be allowed to be fat. But if you're so fat you need 2 airline seats, you should pay for 2 seats, just like a non-fat person who wants 2 seats.

People should be allowed to use drugs and be drug addicts. But if you're so drugged up that you shit in the street and attack other people, you should go to jail, just like a non-drug user who shits in the street or attacks people.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#249

Post by toomim » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:52 PM UTC

darth_avocado wrote: post #205

brightlancer wrote: post #186

Rubbish. Folks made the exact same arguments about alcohol and marijuana. Specifically with alcohol, anyone can walk into a treatment center without fear that they'll be arrested for the mere _use_ of a substance. (Marijuana has very low risk and rates of addiction, physical or psychological.) If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, so…

I generally agree with the sentiment that drugs should be treated like we treat other addictions like alcohol. Drugs should be decriminalized, anti social criminal behavior should stay criminalized. If I’m drunk and pee in public or assault someone, I’ll go to jail. That is what should happen if I do it under the influence of drugs. The one difference though between alcohol and some of the drugs is potency and how qu…

Driving drunk is illegal because you're likely to kill someone, and then it'll be too late to say "let's just prosecute the crime of manslaughter, and not prevent future manslaughters by prosecuting drunkenness in the car."

In the same way, we should make it illegal to do drugs in situations where you are likely to cause irreparable harm.

If we legalize drugs, let's create safe situations to do so. Many drugs are being legalized under the supervision of a doctor. We could also allow drug use within a safe space where you can't OD, and where you won't leave needles on the ground for kids to step on.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#250

Post by atomicfiredoll » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 8:53 PM UTC

rvcdbn wrote: post #133

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

We have built a society where the best options for these people are to do what they are doing. Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. It’s really a form of suicide. Criminalizing will make the suicide process faster and less visible to you. It won’t stop any…

I had a friend who had tried several substances and thought they were above addiction... until they were eventually hooked on heroin. It's anecdotal, but having watched people (more than him) get addicted, I don't have much doubt that even people with a good life get hooked on bad drugs.

Hopefully, as society becomes more honest about drugs and stops scheduling every drug as equally dangerous or criminal, friends like that will be able to better trust that dangerous drugs do exist and know which ones to avoid.

You'll never find disagreement on the need for societal change. My impression is that the U.S. doesn't really have tools in place to help people caught in the grip addiction back from the brink. Best case, it seems like something that that is being dealt with city by city without a national framework. Therefore, addicts largely end up on the street, hurting others, and/or in a prison system that's not designed to help them.