FedNow Is Live • Hacker News Board

Re: FedNow Is Live

#241

Post by Spivak » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:45 PM UTC

bluescrn wrote: post #196

lbotos wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are many Americans who are small gov and against excessive taxation. A CBDC is "too far" for a lot of people who believe that.

Imagine being paid in a ‘programmable’ currency that your employer (or government) decides cannot be spent on alcohol, meat, or fossil fuels. Meanwhile, wealthier people get paid in ‘unrestricted’ currency.

I mean if we're talking that level of societal breakdown they would just use the system we already have for tracking semi-restricted purchases which is scanning and reporting your government ID.

Then you can enforce meat and fossil fuel rations with no way to buy yourself around it.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#242

Post by solardev » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #157

solardev wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see government IDs be available as a form of auth on the internet. It would open up the possibility of real-person communities with fewer bots and trolls. Similarly with digital payments, I'd much rather trust the government with that than some rando cryptobro of the week. There is nothing extreme about this. The government already does both functions in the analog world. It's about time they caught u…

> It would open up the possibility of real-person communities with fewer bots and trolls. I would be 100% unwilling to engage with public online communities if I had to reveal my real-world identity to do so.

And that's OK. I'm sure there would still be anonymous forums, the 4chans and reddits of the world and such. But this would enable real-identity communities that we don't currently have, useful for things like public comments and discussions for local news (god, those newspaper comment sections are horrible right now), government requests for comments (like when they're starting a new development or changing land use or whatever), things like a public version of Nextdoor/Yelp/etc.

The hope is not that it would kill anonymity altogether, but that it would create some alternative communities linked to real-world identities, and maybe that would help people behave better, with real-world decorum, in those specific identities. Yeah, some people would never sign up for those... and maybe that's OK, as long as the remaining community is more civil and thoughtful?

Re: FedNow Is Live

#243

Post by solardev » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

drivebyhooting wrote: post #142

solardev wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see government IDs be available as a form of auth on the internet. It would open up the possibility of real-person communities with fewer bots and trolls. Similarly with digital payments, I'd much rather trust the government with that than some rando cryptobro of the week. There is nothing extreme about this. The government already does both functions in the analog world. It's about time they caught u…

It’s not even been 100 years and people already forgot.

US history isn't my forte. Can you elaborate?

Re: FedNow Is Live

#244

Post by killjoywashere » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

So, is the cost of moving money at the retail level zero to almost negative at this point? I mean, literally, we as a society have invested tax dollars to reduce money movement to something that's damn near minimum entropy.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#245

Post by Spoom » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

orf wrote: post #207

aketchum wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you are being snippy, but to actually answer the question: Kinda - if you are paid on Fridays then payroll is submitted on Tuesday or Wednesday.

No I’m genuinely asking. You get paid at the end of the month, but it actually arrives in your bank 4 or 5 days later?

ACH is generally overnight. I don't know the internals, but if I get paid on Friday, I actually get the money in my account on Friday. Perhaps they actually send it a day or two early.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#246

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

ianburrell wrote: post #213

jabroni_salad wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of it more as an alternative method to fulfill the kinds of things that ACH and Wire Transfers are used for. You'll probably never see 'this is a fednow function' on any consumer facing documentation, but billpay, payroll etc will use it.

I'm assuming that banks and payment services will add it to their services. Everything that goes over ACH will gradually switch to FedNow. There will be no noticeable difference to users except that transfer will be instantaneous instead of taking days.

[deleted]

Re: FedNow Is Live

#247

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #34

iudqnolq wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, it's going to let the government see every transaction you make Can you go into more detail here on what you think will change from the status quo? Existing bank transfers are obviously not secret from the government on request. While the government doesn't have direct access to run search heuristics on the whole dataset they just delegate that to the banks' internal compliance team.

If the government wants to tax these transactions - and let's admit it, they do - they'll take it right off the top. Unlike with the banking system where different banks have different prices for wires - or even free under certain conditions - you can't "shop around" for a new government. Further, if a government determines you are not an "acceptable" participant, they have the ability to stop transactions to/from yo…

> If the government wants to tax these transactions - and let's admit it, they do - they'll take it right off the top.

The Federal Reserve isn't the government. Yes, if they want to charge a fee for this service, they could. The same is true of every existing money-moving mechanism.

> Unlike with the banking system where different banks have different prices for wires - or even free under certain conditions - you can't "shop around" for a new government

FedNow is essentially free[0]. If FedNow imposes a higher fee in the future, you can always choose to use other services (ACH, wire payments, etc.). It's a competitive market.

> Further, if a government determines you are not an "acceptable" participant, they have the ability to stop transactions to/from you.

This power already exists. FedNow doesn't change it one way or the other.

[0] https://www.frbservices.org/news/press-releases/012722-fedno...

Re: FedNow Is Live

#248

Post by Mistletoe » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:52 PM UTC

lbotos wrote: post #159

tjpnz wrote: post #149

I don't understand why FedNow and CBDC are such a big issue in the US. FedNow looks quite attractive from a fees perspective, especially when compared to PayPal and alike. Part of me wonders if the middlemen who stand to lose out might be trying to muddy the waters. It wouldn't be the first time.

Because there are many Americans who are small gov and against excessive taxation. A CBDC is "too far" for a lot of people who believe that.

You are already starting to pigeonhole people with your stereotype. I'm as liberal as they come and I find the thought of a CBDC to be an unimaginable Orwellian nightmare. A boot stamping on the face of civil liberties and privacy forever.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#249

Post by raincom » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:52 PM UTC

natas wrote: post #54

I am very worried when the government knows/governs money transfers; look at china.

Feds already get money transfer data without warrants. Recently Chase closed my checking account because I use Zelle so often. Chase knows all Zelle records because they partially own Zelle. I would rather have Feds own the data, rather than banks. When banks own data, they make decisions to close people’s bank accounts without any proof of abuse.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#250

Post by finfrastrcuture » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #96

Is there going to be a universal SDK / API we can use with this? This would cut alot of middle companies out of the payments industry (or at least put pressure on lowering fees). That would be a huge win. Wish we could do the same for the credit card companies. Would be great if the Federal Government could intervene in some way to have Visa / Mastercard / American Express / Discover use the same API interface for pa…

that seems like the right answer...

however, the payment itself is almost besides the point. the tricky part is the scheme / governance surrounding payments. who is liable for what, preventing fraud, etc. these large payment actors + the middlemen are more about fostering trust networks than moving the actual dollars and cents.

fraud in P2P payment networks (e.g. Zelle) is already a huge issue because a lack of a governing actor like a card network.[0] a different question is would the government ever provide this mediating role / lay out guidelines? would we want it to?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/business/payments-fraud-z...