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Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

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Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#241

Why do we expect to have good managers when we promote based on technical competency rather than leadership ability? Sure, a certain basic level of technical competency is needed, but after that management and development require different skills.

There are a lot of managers who haven't done any of the work that their reports do, and those that do have field experience but not even expertise.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#242
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“No True Senior SWE” paradox? 10yrs is a very long time in Computer Science. All the engineers I’ve worked with from earlier eras are very influenced by what they started their career with. Heck I’m the same way as I approach my decade threshold.

Title inflation. I speculate based on no evidence other than my own observations that it's because companies aren't willing to pay entry or junior engineers well enough, so lots of them get hired at lowball rates with an implicit understanding that they'll get promoted to senior after 3 years and get the a corresponding pay raise. Either that, or they don't get promoted or a raise, change jobs, and get the senior tit…

Promotion is absolutely my employer's main retention tool. Many of our senior engineers who leave don't end up with a senior title at their new employer, but they do get a bump in pay.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't pay someone $200k to churn out CRUD - there's plenty of lowcode solutions like Flask for that! I somewhat agree, though, the core issue with "paying for business value" is how difficult it is to really define that across an org.

>You don't pay someone $200k to churn out CRUD I've got some bad news for you about what 90% of FAANG work is like

sure, but in most cases they're hired to deprive competition, not build products, your avg. shop doesn't have that luxury.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking truth to power is rarely easy. Some leaders can take genuine feedback others cannot. Until you have a good pulse on the situation, is it really surprising most people default to inauthentic critiques?

This is why I'm very skeptical on the use of 1-on-1 meetings with management as a means to keep a finger on what's going well or badly in an organization. If someone is OK with telling management things they don't want to hear, they'll tell management those things regardless of 1-on-1s.

Isn't the problem there that management has things they don't want to hear?

Like the whole premise of a skip level is the management hearing more things.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#245
> Oftentimes, employees are getting plenty of work done; it's just that the projects are of little to no importance to the company's bottom line.

a.k.a. “Innovation”.

For whatever reason, I’m one of those engineers that big organizations seem to hunt down for their “innovation” agenda. I have much to say about these experiences. In particular, the advice given by innovation gurus like business professors, authors, and management consultants, is terrible.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It can be hard to see if they're contributing anything valuable" Indeed. It's easier to evaluate "the appearance of change" than actual value or improvement. When I consider this problem, my current belief is that only long-term discipline from senior leadership can change this system.

I was thinking about all this recently and came up with the question: In the event that someone fails, is it possible for it to be you? There are people who cannot fail at their jobs. I want one of those jobs. An upper manager who attends meetings and "makes decisions" and is personal friends with the CEO often cannot fail. If the product stops selling, it will be considered a failure of those below the upper manager…

In a properly functioning organization, a leader takes responsibility for the everything that happens on their watch, not just the successes but the failures as well. Even if an underling actually did something to cause a failure, the supervisor put them in the position where they could cause failure, kept them there, and failed to put into place the precautions to prevent that failure. Obviously many organizations don't work like this, but for success-motivated people it is very draining to work in such an environment, especially for long enough to get to the high levels where you could potentially benefit from its dysfunction.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#247

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

> Gut from the top if you want to get rid of the problem. It’s not the L5 engineer or the first line manager that’s holding any product back. I tend to agree but there's a real danger in leaving engineers to their own devices. I know this will be downvoted, but software engineers are the worst at planning their own work. The vast majority will just go off and do wtf ever they want. There really has to be guard rails…

‘Developer Hegemony’ — which should be called ‘Information Worker Hegemony’ — makes the case for engineers being involved in planning and strategy. Most developers I’ve worked with were amazing self-starters that can get tons of stuff done by themselves. It’s the micro-managing and lack of vision that seems to have the greatest negative effect on their productivity.

As an engineer-turned-manager, I am fascinated by how poorly other departments handle planning (at our company). Devs are just amazing at getting things done when left alone, provided they know why feature X is important.

See: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35051753-developer-hegem...

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't always (or usually) work in some of these BigCorps. It's not that they don't give you freedom to go ... do stuff -- they often do -- but there are also are often very concrete boundaries about who is allowed to actually have the stuff they do go into any kind of production codebase. And very rigorous review processes, etc. and often the first question in a code review on something exotic and new at a pla…

It was many years ago but when I was at Google I started a new project in my 20% time and then took it all the way to production, it's still there and handles millions of requests per second because it's integrated into many of their biggest products (it wasn't a standalone thing). Yes, I had to write design docs, do PRDs, do privacy reviews, get launch approvals and many other things. Sometimes I had to integrate th…

If I cared that much about a project that I'd fight bureaucracy and stupid paperwork to make it happen and work overtime and push myself like crazy... why would I give it to Google?

For the decade I was there, I couldn't honestly think of something I'd want to put that kind of effort into so that some human-dialtone like Sundar could cancel it later, or some pushier and better organized person could take credit for it.

But I have certainly thought of them after I left.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#249
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work more means what? It's about efficiency in terms of performance metrics.

It might be a combination of efficiency and generating value. If you're efficient enough to generate $1000/hr but the org has no opportunity or product for you that can generate this, efficiency in performance metrics alone doesn't move the company's bottom line.

Exactly, the word work was used as a simplification of the overall output expected. You also need to account for the hard parts to calculate, human burnout, turnover rate, time to deliver a product to the market, amount of rework, tech debt added, etc... Someone who can deliver a fancy project, full of tech debt, will require 5x more effort on rework than was to do it, and the team gets burned out severely after the project. Would it be worth it? In the short term senior management will see it as a good idea. But most managers and senior managers are too naive to account for these hidden variables, or in most cases, not interested to take these metrics into account
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