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Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

bbc.com

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Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#241

Post by cyberax »

carlmr wrote: post #191
cyberax wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Options: 1. So you start digging and find huge concrete cylinders with clearly marked "radioactive" warning signs. Hilarity ensues, people sue each other, and cylinders get moved somewhere else. 2. You just build a house on the ground (without digging). Nothing bad happens. 3. Civilization collapses, nobody cares about the abandoned casks.

>1. So you start digging and find huge concrete cylinders with clearly marked "radioactive" warning signs. Hilarity ensues, people sue each other, and cylinders get moved somewhere else. The radioactive symbol (trefoil) was invented in 1946. In 2007 a new supplementary symbol was created. Sure it still includes a trefoil, but it's smaller. Now just imagine the symbols we used today, what we think is obvious might not…

First, people that far in the future will still know about the previous civilizations. So it's highly unlikely that they'll forget all the languages.

Sure, every random Zakjsnd, Joe and Yelaldto won't know English, but archeologists certainly will. And they'll be able to read it.

But even if we suppose that a nearby supernova explosion resulted in a burst of magic rays that somehow wiped all memories, people will either:

1. Know what radiation is, and they'll test casks for it.

2. They won't be doing digging down for at least tens of meters.

You really need a very unlikely confluence of factors: a very developed, but still pre-technological civilization, that is somehow interested in digging way down (why?) in that particular spot.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#242

Post by carlmr »

cyberax wrote: post #241
carlmr wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1. So you start digging and find huge concrete cylinders with clearly marked "radioactive" warning signs. Hilarity ensues, people sue each other, and cylinders get moved somewhere else. The radioactive symbol (trefoil) was invented in 1946. In 2007 a new supplementary symbol was created. Sure it still includes a trefoil, but it's smaller. Now just imagine the symbols we used today, what we think is obvious might not…

First, people that far in the future will still know about the previous civilizations. So it's highly unlikely that they'll forget all the languages. Sure, every random Zakjsnd, Joe and Yelaldto won't know English, but archeologists certainly will. And they'll be able to read it. But even if we suppose that a nearby supernova explosion resulted in a burst of magic rays that somehow wiped all memories, people will eit…

I'm pretty sure that pre-Curie Europeans did a lot of digging tens of meters in the ground.

If that knowledge somehow gets lost, which over such a long timeline seems almost likely, people will die from radiation poisoning without knowing what hit them.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#243

Post by cyberax »

carlmr wrote: post #242
cyberax wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, people that far in the future will still know about the previous civilizations. So it's highly unlikely that they'll forget all the languages. Sure, every random Zakjsnd, Joe and Yelaldto won't know English, but archeologists certainly will. And they'll be able to read it. But even if we suppose that a nearby supernova explosion resulted in a burst of magic rays that somehow wiped all memories, people will eit…

I'm pretty sure that pre-Curie Europeans did a lot of digging tens of meters in the ground. If that knowledge somehow gets lost, which over such a long timeline seems almost likely, people will die from radiation poisoning without knowing what hit them.

> I'm pretty sure that pre-Curie Europeans did a lot of digging tens of meters in the ground.

In pre-industrial era? Not really. There was more digging after the steam engine invention, as suddenly people started looking for coal and ore. But that's what, 400 years out of 10000+ years of European culture?

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#244

Post by cyberax »

oxfordmale wrote: post #240
cyberax wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have buses, then you also likely know about radioactivity. And the archeological lab will quickly identify the casks. And if it's a pre-historic society, then why would you be digging 30 meters below ground anyway?

Why would a pre-historic society go to the trouble of dragging large stones 150 miles or more ? (Stonehenge) Mankind has gone to great lengths to admire the death, and digging a 30 meter hole is definitely achievable given other prehistoric monuments.

Sure. And what are the chances that a Stonehenge-like monument would be located exactly on the site of nuclear waste disposal?

For this to happen, such monuments have to be commonplace. Which would require a technological civilization. Then see above.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#245

Post by VeninVidiaVicii »

culopatin wrote: post #237
belorn wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the argument that they will need to speak Finish to be boring. Why should they in hundreds to thousands of years need to read an ancient document to figure out whats below the ground. It is not a realistic problem.

You don’t know that, all you can do is try your best TODAY to avoid issues in the future. It seems very clear to me that if we all follow the rules of traffic we can safely go 90+ since I’m a pretty good driver, everyone else must be too. Yet the speed limit is much lower and people crash all the time anyway. It’s evident to me that if I order a coffee, it’ll be hot, but the lid says “caution hot”. It’s obvious that…

Frankly I don’t even understand why the poster above you says it’s unrealistic. Is it because humans won’t be around?

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#246

Post by natmaka »

panick21_ wrote: post #101

I just don't like this, a huge amount of money spent for nothing. This fuel can be managed just fine above ground. Yes maybe ever couple 100 years you might have to move it, who cares. If your society isn't capable managing nuclear waste then nobody will care anymore anyway. Also, this is not 'waste' there are interesting and unique materials there that might be relevant in the next 100+ years. Not to mention that th…

In the team managing the Fukushima plant there probably was someone absolutely sure of what we can manage, and of his ability to predict and therefore dislike spending money for some useless higher wall...

Yanosuke Hirai's ways seem more adequate to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onagawa_Nuclear_Power_Plant#20...

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#247

Post by belorn »

culopatin wrote: post #237
belorn wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the argument that they will need to speak Finish to be boring. Why should they in hundreds to thousands of years need to read an ancient document to figure out whats below the ground. It is not a realistic problem.

You don’t know that, all you can do is try your best TODAY to avoid issues in the future. It seems very clear to me that if we all follow the rules of traffic we can safely go 90+ since I’m a pretty good driver, everyone else must be too. Yet the speed limit is much lower and people crash all the time anyway. It’s evident to me that if I order a coffee, it’ll be hot, but the lid says “caution hot”. It’s obvious that…

It not about how smart future people will be, or how we can eliminate every danger possible for future man. It is that we even today we do not reference old documents to figure out what is safe and was is not.

As an example, humanity has documented ocean dangers for centuries. Everything from human created dangers like shipwrecks to natural occurring shallows and strong currents. Captains that want to avoid those dangers could read those, learning every language from ancient Greek to Latin to dutch, scouring the many archives that exist to figure out what is down below. No one does this (except for archeologists). Captains use modern maps, sonar and satellites, neither which require knowledge of ancient Greek.

Maps and their information about dangers are perishable with a fairly short lifespan. Making a map with the intention of it lasting hundred of thousands of years is an impossible task. Any danger, be that natural like cliffs or unnatural like mine shafts, can not be made into a map that will last hundred of thousands of years. Such maps will need to be maintained or rediscovered. Every single garbage dump, every industrial area, every zone or place where humans has done something to the environment will have to be maintained in updated maps for as long as those places remain dangerous to humans.

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