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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#241

Post by pclmulqdq »

bradleyjg wrote: post #206
indy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart broke. I wept because of the cruelty. I wouldn’t want to work with someone that wrote this. I’m not sure which is worse—if it’s hyperbole or it isn’t.

This is modern wokespeak for "what you did is unprofessional and I'm not sticking around for more." A lot of the emotional hyperbole in this blog post is essentially that - emotional vulnerability and sensitivity is valued in "hyper-woke" contexts, while words like "unprofessional" are seen as callous - and I kind of read it that way rather than literally.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#243

Post by Waterluvian »

pie_flavor wrote: post #213

This is certainly strangely phrased. The version I got from another member was that the content of the talk was to be about a proposed feature that may not actually end up in Rust (in my view it likely would not), and having that be the keynote talk would imply to a lot of people that it would end up in Rust and put the language in an uncomfortable position where something other than the feature's merit would be push…

I would love if every language conference included a segment dedicated to “language ideas” where the expectation is that these ideas are unlikely to land but are fruitful to explore.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#244

Post by jasmer »

whinvik wrote: post #26
arp242 wrote: post #10

I've been to plenty of conferences over the years, and I never really knew who was a "keynote speaker" or "only" a "speaker". Does anyone pay attention to this? You give a talk. People show up. They clap at the end. Does it really matter what some title on some conference website is? The communication was perhaps a bit more confusing and hectic than it should have been, but does that really matter? Is that really a b…

I feel like this post misses the point. Do most people care if someone was a keynote speaker? No(Outside of academia). Is it a big deal if your talk was selected as a speaker or keynote speaker? No. But should you care if your talk is demoted from Keynote to non-keynote without following due process(and possibly because of personal biases)? Yes. I don't know anything about any of the parties involved, but I feel like…

Nobody cares but the speaker themselves.

There is obviously some legit cred here, and it's a definite downgrade - but it's not being sent to the woods either. G

Given that 'nobody else cares at all, whatsoever' - that adds context to this which we should include in our understanding. Nobody is missing grant money, or getting a stain on their resume, not getting a job, publicly dragged, meaning the slight is ultimately very personal.

There is a legit grievance here, but it's overstated.

Most gripes have a kernel of truth, the issue is to match up the size of the truth, with the size of the kernel.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#245

Post by another_story »

josephg wrote: post #188
jakear wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How ironic that Rust should have the most problems arising as a result of shared ownership. Perhaps they should consider a model where the entity has a single logical owner and requests to change its state are made by passing messages to that owner…

I don't think its ironic. Its just that a shared ownership model is more complex than having a single person in charge, making decisions. And its a reasonably new idea - not many of us have the experience and skills we need to make it work. Inevitably, more mistakes happen. In many ways its sort of incredible and impressive how well rust functions. There's probably hundreds of people involved, from core compiler tool…

I think op is making a rust joke more than anything else.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#246

Post by drxzcl »

jasmer wrote: post #233
drxzcl wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a puerile take. If you ignore the optics of the situation you are going to step in it big time, even if your intentions are completely honorable. You need to be aware of the optics of your behavior, because that's all outside observers see. Your intentions are not something other people have access to. You going on the offensive like this on this particular point makes you look (see, optics again) either incr…

My gosh no, this toxic - it is not up to people to have contextualise or defend their behaviour given others' sensitivities. It is fundamentally bigoted to assume racism, and fundamentally up to people to provide at least some evidence or context if they suspect there is. The commentor is not going on the offensive, rather the defensive, as someone else brought the issue up. "makes you look (see, optics again) either…

That’s a lot of words you just put in my mouth.

I’m not going to bother responding to every point you just hallucinated, but I do want to point out that I don’t think a crime has been committed.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#247

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

diydsp wrote: post #228
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"White" is rather emphatically not like other ethnic or racial labels. Throughout the history of the US, who counts as "white" has been redefined many times to suit the political goals of the people at the time. In the era of the founding fathers, the Irish, Spaniards, Italians, all considered not white. Then during various times, often driving by waves of immigration of some other ethnicity people were freaking out…

...Calling a PoC ignorant, lecturing them and imploring them to read about racism... whew... Them having been on the other side of the saddle, I'd bet they're familiar. How about simply listening to what they have to say without instruction, seeing their perspective and taking it in?

I assumed nothing about the person and am simply relating history.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#248

Post by lamp987 »

bitwize wrote: post #9
locusofself wrote: post #5

What's up with all the petty drama in the Rust community.. is it uniquely problematic?

No, open source is just like this now. I think it's a confluence of factors: 1) Open source is more about interpersonal collaboration than it ever has been. The lone hacker throwing tarballs -- or patches -- over the fence is dead. Open source projects now more closely resemble "real world" software projects: a team of engineers using collaborative tools, working toward a defined shared vision with management and ove…

>Fully 25% of Gen Z identify as LGBTQ.

What does typing on a computer keyboard have to do with where you put your genitals? No one cares and most importantly, no one should care. Keep your sexual and romantic life to yourself in a programming community.

>There are going to be struggles and clashes as members of different classes assert their grievances and call each other out.

Thats a bad thing that must be nipped in the bud.

>In short, this kind of "drama" is a growing pain of open source becoming a real movement that invites and incorporates diverse voices.

More like its death convulsions.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#250

Post by FrustratedMonky »

sidlls wrote: post #231
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #169

Is it just me, or is this a lot of melodrama for a language. I love arguing over technical details, this seems more like "house wives of rust".

The Rust community (in aggregate; I'd hope I wouldn't need to state the obvious that it doesn't apply to all individuals, but...Rust community) fosters this sort of melodrama. There is a core of extremely zealous "Rust wins all the things" types who don't stop at advocating for a language on its technical merits: they have to belittle and berate users of other languages because their choice (or not: employment is wha…

Its just so odd to me. It used to be that a language was like an impartial technology that could be evaluated. Back in the day would anybody ever say "wow those C++ people are noxious, I'm not going to use objects".
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