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Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

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Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#241

Post by andrewem »

tptacek wrote: post #180
hermannj314 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to believe that but the tone I got from the story is that we shouldn't be using our local libraries. I'd hate the thought that I have checked out a book I could otherwise afford to buy and deprived the use to someone that could not. Or that I am using a computer to read Hackernews that an ex-convict needs to use to apply for a government program to keep his grandson alive. Using the library deprives a slice…

This simply isn't true. The library keeps stats on how many books are being loaned out, and when they drop, they lose an argument for funding the service. Meanwhile, the people who genuinely need the library don't need it to take books out; lending out books is a service that disproportionately helps people with the leisure time to develop a taste for reading books for pleasure.

Agreed. I recently went to the Boston Public Library to get a specific book that was supposed to be on the shelf. I couldn't find it so a librarian put in a request to have it found and held for me. She noticed that it had been checked out 6 times in the last year, which she said was a lot, and therefore if it couldn't be found they'd make sure to order another copy. (It was http://beinggeek.com/, and it eventually turned up.)

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#242

Post by andrewem »

tptacek wrote: post #180
hermannj314 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to believe that but the tone I got from the story is that we shouldn't be using our local libraries. I'd hate the thought that I have checked out a book I could otherwise afford to buy and deprived the use to someone that could not. Or that I am using a computer to read Hackernews that an ex-convict needs to use to apply for a government program to keep his grandson alive. Using the library deprives a slice…

This simply isn't true. The library keeps stats on how many books are being loaned out, and when they drop, they lose an argument for funding the service. Meanwhile, the people who genuinely need the library don't need it to take books out; lending out books is a service that disproportionately helps people with the leisure time to develop a taste for reading books for pleasure.

I recently went to the Boston Public Library to get a specific book that was supposed to be on the shelf. I couldn't find it so a librarian put in a request to have it found and held for me. She noticed that it had been checked out 6 times in the last year, which she said was a lot, and therefore if it couldn't be found they'd make sure to order another copy. (It was http://beinggeek.com/, and it eventually turned up.)

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#243

Post by sshumaker »

xenophanes wrote: post #188
GFKjunior wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a fanatical libertarian and Rand is not a major figure in most modern circles. Austrian writers are the go to role models for most libertarians, Hayek, Mises, my favorite is Rothbard.

Are you aware the Rothbard thinks of children as property, and is anti-semitic, among other disgusting positions? And that Hayek sympathizes, morally, with socialism? Mises is wonderful but these other people you list with him are really quite different than him.

Rothbard:

"The parent should not have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate his children, since such obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon the parent and depriving the parent of his rights. The parent therefore may not murder or mutilate his child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from doing so. But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die."

See http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/fourteen.asp

Yeah, pretty disgusting.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#244

Post by rpeden »

lbotos wrote: post #154
tptacek wrote: post #121

Can I add to this one little point, which is a counterintuitive thing you can do to help your local library: Use your local library . During the year we started Matasano our Chicago team spent about 40%-50% of our time working from the Oak Park Public Library, sometimes in meeting rooms we booked, more often at study desks. It was great. The Internet access wasn't amazing but it was totally functional and we could VP…

A friend of Mine just graduated with a Degree in Literature and we talk about the futures of libraries all the time. We often ask what would happen if libraries opened up a small coffee shop/stand inside of them? With enough "marketing" would people go to libraries instead?

I've seen quite a few that execute the coffee shop idea nicely!

The main branch of the Ottawa Public Library has a nice little coffee/food shop in the middle of its main floor.

I've also visited two public libraries in smaller cities north of Toronto recently, and they also have similar shops. I think it is a great idea, as I will sometimes go to the library to work for the day and don't even have to leave the building for lunch.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#245

Post by sshumaker »

jes wrote: post #195
philwelch wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a fanatical Randroid myself in my younger years, and while she may not have gone as far as "never accept handouts", she did go as far as "never expect handouts", and in Rand's system there is explicitly no right or expectation to anything unearned. Rand's opposition to "libertarians" was purely a personal dislike of the people in Rand's time who called themselves libertarians. Most sensible definitions of the w…

Do you think you have the right to something that someone else has to work to produce? That's what Rand was against. You don't have a right to use force to cause someone else to work for your benefit.

There is a pretty clear logical flaw here. Nothing is produced in a vacuum. Your ability to create, to generate wealth, is heavily reliant on the infrastructure and services provided by your society (electricity, defense, roads, education, etc).

In other words, if Bill Gates had been born in Somalia, chances are he wouldn't be nearly as successful.

Taxation is how you repay your debt to the society that enabled your success.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#246

Post by rooshdi »

tptacek wrote: post #128
drewcrawford wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would LOVE to work out of my local library, unfortunately, here in Austin libraries have the policy that meeting rooms etc. are only for non-profit groups that are open to the public. No private meetings, no "open to the public meetings" that are run by for-profit companies. I suppose your garage startup could probably _get away with_ meeting there, but it's a big no-no.

The private meeting rooms were nice, but most of the time we just worked from the study desks. Even when we had the private rooms, there was always a feeling of time pressure in them. You might need private space a lot less than you think you do.

Yea, the private rooms at my local library are made almost obsolete by the open study tables and desks there. For one, you don't have to worry about the constant time restrictions, and the extra ventilation doesn't hurt either.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#247

Post by philwelch »

jes wrote: post #195
philwelch wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a fanatical Randroid myself in my younger years, and while she may not have gone as far as "never accept handouts", she did go as far as "never expect handouts", and in Rand's system there is explicitly no right or expectation to anything unearned. Rand's opposition to "libertarians" was purely a personal dislike of the people in Rand's time who called themselves libertarians. Most sensible definitions of the w…

Do you think you have the right to something that someone else has to work to produce? That's what Rand was against. You don't have a right to use force to cause someone else to work for your benefit.

I don't think it's best to frame the question in terms of rights. If you're asking whether it's morally justified to tax millionaires in order to feed and house the homeless, my answer is yes.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#248

Post by philwelch »

sshumaker wrote: post #243
xenophanes wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware the Rothbard thinks of children as property, and is anti-semitic, among other disgusting positions? And that Hayek sympathizes, morally, with socialism? Mises is wonderful but these other people you list with him are really quite different than him.

Rothbard: "The parent should not have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate his children, since such obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon the parent and depriving the parent of his rights. The parent therefore may not murder or mutilate his child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from doing so. But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die." Se…

I think what Rothbard and Rand both illustrate is the flaw of letting logical consistency override every other consideration, including basic human decency and moral intuition, when developing one's moral sense.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#249

Post by Retric »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #236
Retric wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I benefit from library's near me that I have never been to. They among other things reduce crime in my area which then reduces the need for shops in my area to protect themselves at night, which allows for both lower prices and longer hours. Could other things provide the same benefit, of course video games also reduce crime. But, the choice is not to eliminate these library's and watching identical private ones pop…

First, where I live (India), libraries are provided by the private sector. So clearly market forces can provided libraries. Second, how much crime is prevented by libraries? Is this the cheapest way to prevent crime? Or would it be cheaper to devote the money to a few more beat cops?

The US library system far supposes India's. There would a few library's near me without public funds. But, most of them would shut down so an equivalent private option does not actually exist.

Is it the cheapest way to prevent crime? Is a leading question. Where I live we spend a lot of money on a wide range of things from beat cops to parks and street lights that prevent crime. And library's provide many other services than just crime prevention.

A more realistic question might be; Assume 10% of their useful function to me was crime prevention would reallocating 10% of their funding to something else above and beyond what we already spend on it prevent more crime? And the answer to that question is no.

PS: In theory we might be able to say use subliminal messages to prevent crime more cheaply. But, of the options that are actually being considered Library's are surprisingly cost effective.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#250

Post by pehrlich »

tptacek wrote: post #180
hermannj314 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to believe that but the tone I got from the story is that we shouldn't be using our local libraries. I'd hate the thought that I have checked out a book I could otherwise afford to buy and deprived the use to someone that could not. Or that I am using a computer to read Hackernews that an ex-convict needs to use to apply for a government program to keep his grandson alive. Using the library deprives a slice…

This simply isn't true. The library keeps stats on how many books are being loaned out, and when they drop, they lose an argument for funding the service. Meanwhile, the people who genuinely need the library don't need it to take books out; lending out books is a service that disproportionately helps people with the leisure time to develop a taste for reading books for pleasure.

Theres a second effect, too. When someone who has any resource in the world available to them goes to use the library, you can be damn sure they'll have standards. If libraries are only for those without other options, those who have seen what can be will not be there to demand improvement.
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