Live data from Hacker News

Where have all the hackers gone?

morepablo.com

241–250 of 351 posts

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#241

Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. He talks about a "friend" and then proceeds to say things like "To be honest, I suspect he didn't know or think much about them" or "This was not a fruitful conversation". How is that supposed friend, who might very well be aware of this person's blog, going to feel after reading this? Is it a cultur…

I think it's perfectly okay if my friends think they had an unfruitful conversation with me and thought that I didn't know what I was talking about. I don't like rubber-stamp people who just say whatever I want to hear and have no depth of their own and aren't willing to disagree on anything.

In fact, I really can't stand when I talk to someone and they seem to agree unconditionally with everything I say; it's not believable. Surely they disagree, why can't they express their feelings? Why is no one willing to go on a limb and be wrong or criticized? I find it particularly prevalent in the tech circles, when talking to parents of other kids in the SF Bay area. Everything is very picture perfect, and I can't believe it, so I feel I can't trust the people speaking. They're too nice, too polished.

I like my friends who will disagree with me (most of the time respectfully) and allow me to say stupid things and forgive me for my imperfections, and equally for theirs.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#242
post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

i think there's always going to be a bell curve of programmers: say those in the pocket on the left are interested in the "soil" as the author put it

as the total number of programmers grows, so too does the pocket, but at a smaller rate than the rest of the bell

so, numbers-wise, yes, there will be fewer hackers per average programmer. it becomes harder to find them too, since most people will probably spend most of their time swimming around the middle of the curve

but i think their number overall is still increasing. just have to grit your teeth and jump to discord to find them :)

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#243
post #215
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because a couple of Go folks joined the team doing the prototype in Java, and drove the rewrite into Go. There is a FOSDEM talk about it.

Just imagining a timeline where Kubernetes was written in Java gives me chills.

If Mesos has managed to be slightly more useful, it would have been a Kubernetes written in C++ situation. Of course in my opinion it being written in C++ was the whole reason it had limited usability so it probably would never be.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. You are absolutely correct. This place is populated with quite a few nerds. Nerds typically have subpar social skills, which is is both fueled by and results in a lack of empathy. >"I ♥ people; look for ways to make them happy, and empower them." The propaganda arm of the Soviets is called "Pravda",…

You're getting downvoted, but you're right. >I wanted to talk about its garbage collector (1, 2), its cooperative scheduler that many people think is a preemptive scheduler, its very loose approach to correctness… and he didn't want to talk about any of that. This is not the way an emotionally intelligent person approaches a conversation. The idea that a conversation should be a demonstration of ones own knowledge is…

> This is not the way an emotionally intelligent person approaches a conversation.

Good thing you and the other apparently high EQ commenters in this thread are here to set the records straight and bully some guy over his personality traits as determined by you after reading a single blog post.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. You are absolutely correct. This place is populated with quite a few nerds. Nerds typically have subpar social skills, which is is both fueled by and results in a lack of empathy. >"I ♥ people; look for ways to make them happy, and empower them." The propaganda arm of the Soviets is called "Pravda",…

You're getting downvoted, but you're right. >I wanted to talk about its garbage collector (1, 2), its cooperative scheduler that many people think is a preemptive scheduler, its very loose approach to correctness… and he didn't want to talk about any of that. This is not the way an emotionally intelligent person approaches a conversation. The idea that a conversation should be a demonstration of ones own knowledge is…

> The idea that a conversation should be a demonstration of ones own knowledge

Thanks for a succinct description of something I’ve been noticing a lot lately. This is going to stick with me.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are vanishingly few people who can bootstrap the infrastructure that will let a company grow to Facebook scale Well, he didn't do that. He just wrote a crappy basic PHP backend. The "scaling at Facebook scale" part happened later, after people were hired and VC money flew in. Same like early Twitter was a crap Rails app that they even had to restart a few times a day because of memory leaks. It still got them…

> He just wrote a crappy basic PHP backend. lol. citation needed. Among geniuses who can build a FAANG company from scratch, I'm sure Zuck is not the strongest software engineer or hacker or whatever. Like, Jeff Dean is undoubtedly a better engineer. Craig Silverstein, too. And Bret Taylor. But if you're going to tell me Zuck is a mediocrity -- not just "a lesser light than Jeff Dean" but an actual mediocrity like us…

> citation

Citations widely available via the obvious web searches. Here are responses on Quora with some details about how the hackers hired by Facebook worked around PHP's limitations.

https://www.quora.com/Does-Facebook-still-use-PHP?share=1

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#247
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) I was responding to an admittedly off-topic comment, and not the article. b) Your argument that people solely use empathy as a kudgel to get their way is not reflected in reality. What you describe is emotional manipulation, and as far as I can tell, you're essentially arguing that all calls for empathy in conversation are emotional manipulation... which is ridiculous. c) Simply speaking about people respectfully…

My argument was and is that specifically and narrowly in conversations about AI and its impacts on the livelihoods of people, calling for empathy from others is deliberate emotional manipulation with the objective of cudgeling people into compliance. It's also often a rallying cry, used to de-legitimize the positions of their counterparts as cold, uncaring, unfeeling, and devoid of humanity. Common enough ad-hominem…

> My argument was and is that specifically and narrowly in conversations about AI and its impacts on the livelihoods of people, calling for empathy from others is deliberate emotional manipulation with the objective of cudgeling people into compliance. It's also often a rallying cry, used to de-legitimize the positions of their counterparts as cold, uncaring, unfeeling, and devoid of humanity. Common enough ad-hominem material, though obviously fully emotionally justified.

Sorry, no. You're conflating two very different things. Saying it's unethical to entirely disregard people's livelihoods when deploying new technology doesn't even resemble an ad-hominem attack. Saying that anybody who has an opinion that doesn't match yours is arguing in bad faith IS an ad-hominem. For example: equating advocating for considering people's livlihood as being emotionally manipulative, full stop. It's pretty ironic that you're accusing them of not respecting opposing opinions.

> The only broader comment I offered was that I have worked with a number of people who operate that way on a daily basis. I understand why. It helps them hit their professional goals, ensuring their livelihood and those of their families. Many of them see a resistance to these tools as a lack of respect for their skills, abilities, hard work, or reasonable economic interests.

I don't know anything about your daily life, but I do know that trying to apply the motivations of the difficult people in your life to others you find similarly difficult is pretty intellectually lazy.

> As to personal respect - how prepared are you to see respect in someone saying they understand but disagree?

I do it all the time. I'm always the one trying to get people to see things from someone else's perspective. In this topic, specifically-- I strongly argue with people who think these technologies need to be locked down and left to huge companies solely to protect people's careers. I argue with developers who don't think they need to consider anything beyond technological advancement when deploying technology. Both opinions completely fail to acknowledge the needs of other people and the consequences for protecting their self-interest.

> I can both understand the impact of my words on other people and refuse to shift my position because of their emotional response.

Ok, great. Unless you prove that's true of everybody else, that doesn't address what I initially said.

> Many others may not react as well as you to a compassionate, empathic, kind, caring, and understanding essay arguing that creatives feeling threatened by AI should seriously consider a change of career.

You're right. Many others might not react well to a respectfully worded essay that said those things. You'll notice that I never, ever said that people who advocate for balancing technological advancement with the needs of the people replaced by it are fundamentally unethical. At all.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#248
post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

oh yes.

there's enormous pressure to be normal. being weird is... like... someone's going to be uploading video of you and mocking you.

there's also the thing where its more expensive to have a normal life, financial pressures say "do financial things". like... the us world is shaping to be "high road" qua Stewart Brand whereas hackers thrive in "low road" environments.

there's also sort of this ... how do I say it ... hackers & that legendary online culture was sort of a product of a people without obligations. seeing your kids soccer game is much more important than debugging a program for fun. being monks for code & computers is not culturally sustainable.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#249
post #62

My take is simply that programming has gotten way bigger. People seem to think that in the “old days”, programmers ate raw potatoes and programmed in assembly because it put hairs on their chest. The reality is, computers were way simpler objects back then. Assembler on the Intel 4004 has like, 30 opcodes or something. The list fits on your phone screen without scrolling. Modern javascript bundlers pull in more code…

This rings true. Widespread existential dread of "am I investing / have I invested in the correct niche since I can't learn it all" feels like a logical progression.

The cambrian explosion is happening within subfields too (e.g. AI -- everyone is a specialist within a specialty).

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#250
post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

> Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common?

I think that hackers are still around -- I see them a lot -- but they aren't as publicly visible anymore. They aren't interested in making money, and so they won't be in most mainstream technical fora (including HN), because of the cultural shift that made chasing dollars the main thing.

But they are in more private fora, and they get together in person (at conventions, hackerspaces, etc.).

I don't think the hacker community has grown smaller, but I think most of the web has changed so that it's not as appealing to people who want to talk hacker stuff.

All of which is to say -- like when people ask what happened to the old web, back when it was actually good -- they're still there, but they're harder to see in the increasingly dense forest of commercially-minded places.

Post reply on HN