Europe is a double whammy then for bird populations. The first thing you notice traveling around many european cities is ostensibly there are no spay and neuter programs (or they must be totally ineffective) for the thousands of stray cats that clad each and every rooftop and loiter around every park and street. For some places like Istanbul the overabundance is a point of pride or a tourist attraction in its own right. It's hard to imagine there are any birds at all in these cities with the bulk of the calories in the environment seemingly being held at the small game predator level, which is sustained at a higher level than the available prey can even support thanks to stuff like restaurant dumpsters or people feeding the cute little killing machines directly.
Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
241–250 of 267 posts
Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is this an argument made in good faith? The commentator said reduce meat consumption and that most people ate too much. They didn't say "ban it for everyone, let the autoimmune suffer"
I purposefully chose an extreme example to put it onto the radar of everyone pushing veganism everywhere. Also if you really study sustainability, you see that reducing meat production doesn't lead to better sustainability anyway. If you reduce meat production, you'll hike up prices, likely pricing out those with autoimmune diseases that barely survive already. So technically you are true like in "you can still eat m…
This is theoretical and not the case in practice. Meat companies are an Oligarchy in The United States which is the largest world meat producer. There are four massive meat companies and if they existed at the onset of anti-trust they would have been broken up long ago. The miracle of the market to competitively decide on a price relies on competitive market environments which do not exist in the largest meat market in the world, The US.
You're saying a lot of stuff and I'm going to need more evidence to be convinced as to your position. For what reason would meat prices increase if people ate less meat?
Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
#243In the old days, there were flocks of birds so large that they would blot out the sun, and the herds of bison were so large that it would take a week for a herd to walk by your campsite.
As we get more control of the resources on this planet, the proportions of species measured in earths biomass will certainly change. For example, there are no more wild cattle in europe. There are actually more domestic cattle in europe than there were ever wild cattle, however. The calories to support that surplus of bovine has to come from somewhere in the environment, there is no free energy. More nutrients that would have otherwise gone towards other plants perhaps are used to grow foods for the cattle, and n-th order effects to the rest of the environment happen from there. You can't have 8 billion people generating a surplus of food without changes to the rest of the network of life's interactions.
Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
This goes against so many basic principles of human dietary needs and sustainable agricultural practices. The problems that frequently lead to the argument for cutting meat consumption for ecological reasons are all actually concerns with industrialized meat production practices, not with meat production itself. We don't need to cut meat production, we need to change how we raise, process, and distribute the meat. Ra…
All those animals need to eat. Most crop farming is done to feed livestock rather than humans. That's a lot of wasted land use which could be habitat for wild ecosystems if we just cut down our meat consumption.
Is love to see us move to a different style of meat production, but very much too the same goals you mention.
The entire model of industrial meat production is unsustainable by design. Animals can be raised as part of a larger system that includes growing most, if not all, if the animals' food on site. Having to plant massive fields of feed crops so they can be trucked across the country to industrial meat farms raising animals in crowded lots and concrete boxes is an insane approach.
Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
#245In the old days, there were flocks of birds so large that they would blot out the sun, and the herds of bison were so large that it would take a week for a herd to walk by your campsite.
As we get more control of the resources on this planet, the proportions of species measured in earths biomass will certainly change. For example, there are no more wild cattle in europe. There are actually more domestic cattle in europe than there were ever wild cattle, however. The calories to support that surplus of bovine has to come from somewhere in the environment, there is no free energy. More nutrients that w…
There is free energy from the Sun.
Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
#246Earlier quoted context omitted.
Free market is the reason you need the subsidies, otherwise import tariffs. European production costs around labour, regulations etc would be drastically undercut by foreign low cost markets and you would lose food sovereignty due to foreign imports. Of course subsidies do introduce distortion but they are often simpler globally than tic for tat tariffs.
I'm not so sure if subsidizing a handful of industries avoids the problem of cost imbalances when trading globally. Say we subsidize corn because otherwise our corn industry would be decimated by cheap labor overseas. We successfully walled off one industry, but that cheaper foreign labor is still available for other production. Maybe workers that would be paid overseas to grow corn are instead paid to produce cheape…
I doubt it's expected to be holistic, and there's not much point tariffing a commodity you don't have a viable alternative locally such as oil; Autarky is unlikely to viable in the long run.
Though chemical fertilizer is likely a common weak point for food security with many countries. But this is not a new problem, the US pacific island grab in the 1800s to source Guano shows how regenerating soil macro nutrients has been a centuries old problem that countries have had grapple with.
Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is plainly not accurate - manure from most aninals, especially pig farms, is a hazardous easte to dispose of. Only a small percentage of manure is reused as fertiliser because transporting it is expensive, and messy. Often it needs to be processed before it can be used safely. You can gooogle 'industrial farm US' and see pictures of ani als standing knee deep in their own poop. Also it is illegal to take photos…
Some people can only eat meat due to autoimmune issues exacerbated by vegetables. Are we going to sacrifice them?
Good Christ, did the parent comment suggest banning all meat?
Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok, don't have outdoor cats because they live short lives with high risk of dying painfully. They definitely do stalk feeders and add to the stressors already in place for bird species. More than one thing can contribute to the reduction of bird populations.
This seems nuts to me. Keeping a cat in an apartment its entire life is psychological torture and almost all the indoor only cats I've ever met are neurotic. If you don't want to let your cat move freely, I suggest just not having one.
What do you consider neurotic in a cat?
Have you known many people who own outdoor cats? It's a rare story that doesn't end with "then an asshole in a truck ran him down", "I think a coyote got him", "I think a hawk got him", "I never saw him again", "the neighborhood kids were chasing him with sticks", "found him nearly starved and bleeding", "lost a fight to a dog", or one of many other terrible ways to go. Every one of those is a true story from someone I know. The hawks, coyotes, and cars having happened to innumerable outdoor cats whose owners I've been acquainted with.
So, in my opinion, if you think a cat can only live a decent life outdoors, you shouldn't get one.
Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
Free market is the reason you need the subsidies, otherwise import tariffs. European production costs around labour, regulations etc would be drastically undercut by foreign low cost markets and you would lose food sovereignty due to foreign imports. Of course subsidies do introduce distortion but they are often simpler globally than tic for tat tariffs.
I'm not so sure if subsidizing a handful of industries avoids the problem of cost imbalances when trading globally. Say we subsidize corn because otherwise our corn industry would be decimated by cheap labor overseas. We successfully walled off one industry, but that cheaper foreign labor is still available for other production. Maybe workers that would be paid overseas to grow corn are instead paid to produce cheape…
I think the point being made here is that it may be worth walling off the agriculture industry specifically due to a country’s desire to maintain food security. A worldwide clothing shortage is not as big of a concern, which may be a reason you don’t see the same strategy applied there.
Edit: actually my mistake, that point was made in a separate thread. I think my point still stands though.
Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not so sure if subsidizing a handful of industries avoids the problem of cost imbalances when trading globally. Say we subsidize corn because otherwise our corn industry would be decimated by cheap labor overseas. We successfully walled off one industry, but that cheaper foreign labor is still available for other production. Maybe workers that would be paid overseas to grow corn are instead paid to produce cheape…
I think the point being made here is that it may be worth walling off the agriculture industry specifically due to a country’s desire to maintain food security. A worldwide clothing shortage is not as big of a concern, which may be a reason you don’t see the same strategy applied there. Edit: actually my mistake, that point was made in a separate thread. I think my point still stands though.
It's a fair point for sure. Wish I had links handy and I'll see if they can find solid references. My understanding is that a huge proportion of us crop production is in three or four crops and that most f that production is traded internationally. Meaning, we produce plenty of corn and a few others but we export that and still import a big chunk of my ur actual food supply (or at least the raw materials processed into our food supply).
I'm happy to be wrong there though it's been a while now since I went down that rabbit hole!