Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

journals.sagepub.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 257 posts

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#241

Post by tomtom1337 »

aoeusnth1 wrote: post #237
tomtom1337 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you do it? How old was he?

He was two. I used color stickers on a keyboard, using the We Hear and Play system: http://www.wehearandplay.com/ The Japanese method is based on chord identification, but I found that note identification worked directly. Play a note, point out a toy of that color. Kid brings a toy, play the note for the color. Kid plays a note, you bring a toy. Color association is the tool that lets you connect the music to everyda…

Very interesting! I'll try that when mine turns two!

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#242

Post by bjoli »

Tor3 wrote: post #231
bjoli wrote: post #50

I am a professional musician (bassoon player in a symphony orchestra). I can, if I practice it a couple of times a week, achieve and sustain perfect pitch. I had no semblance of perfect pitch until I decided to practice it at age 24. Before that the only chance I had to guess a note was to put in in relation to my own voice. Even though I don't practice this anymore (it isn't very useful), I still often just instinct…

What you describe sounds like pitch memory, which doesn't have the same qualities (and problems) as actual absolute ("perfect") pitch. I also remember pitch. I can grab my guitar after a week away from it, touch a string and know if it's out of tune. I can tune it without a tuner. But what I'm actually doing is remembering the pitch with the help of the timbre of the guitar string (or harp string, for my wife's harp…

I have tone memory on a bassoon. I described this in another post. It even translates to baroque bassoon, tuned half a not lower.

When I practiced pitch instrument did not matter. I could tell what note a sine wave was.

I never made any differenriation between what I had and absolute pitch. Functionally they wäwrre the same and I believe that if I would have kept it up for a couple of months it would have been permanent. Some of it still lingers. I can still tell whether a tuning A is 440 or 442. Sometimes i just know what note is being played, regardless of instrument. When that feeling comes I am never wrong.

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#243

Post by bjoli »

freedomben wrote: post #85
bjoli wrote: post #50

I am a professional musician (bassoon player in a symphony orchestra). I can, if I practice it a couple of times a week, achieve and sustain perfect pitch. I had no semblance of perfect pitch until I decided to practice it at age 24. Before that the only chance I had to guess a note was to put in in relation to my own voice. Even though I don't practice this anymore (it isn't very useful), I still often just instinct…

How does one "practice" perfect pitch? (genuinely asking so I can try it, not trying to make some dumb rhetorical point about it not being possible)

I began by listening to a C. After a week I could find it reliably every time. Then I did it for all the other notes.

On bassoon I recognize all notes by their timbre. When I did this it started being something else. After a while I didnt recognize the notes. I just knew. I sometimes still have this. My harp colleague plays a note and I just know what it was.

I told this to a friend of mine who teaches solfege at college level (royal Danish conservatory) and she said that in her line of work perfect pitch isn't a gift it is a work-related injury.

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#244

Post by bjoli »

vnorilo wrote: post #111
nostrademons wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a music theory class in college that had a very heavy ear-training component. The TA in the course would often talk about the concept of "pitch memory", both absolute and relative. In other words, perfect pitch isn't a binary concept of you either have it or you don't, but it's your ability to remember and reproduce absolute pitches from memory. What we think of as "perfect pitch" is the extreme version of thi…

I think pitch memory is not at all the same neural phenomenon as perfect (absolute) pitch. I had an ear training teacher who would play a bunch of random atonal notes on the piano between exercises to "reset" our ears. Only works for relative ears. Similarly I (relative pitch) retain the key of a piece I practice. But if someone plays a random sequence of pitches it pretty easily makes me lose my anchor or at least m…

I did not have perfect pitch before this exercise. During it I very much had it.

I didn't recognize the notes like I do on bassoon. I just knew. I sometimes still do, but not every note I hear. Now it is just once in a while.

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#245

Post by bjoli »

edbaskerville wrote: post #212
vnorilo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cellist for the last 35 years here. No perfect pitch. My "perfect" note identification is based on timbre: I know what each note sounds like on the instruments I know intimately. For synthetic tones, I will be off +/- 3 semitones because I will be using an aural memory of the cello a string as a reference, rather than recognizing the frequency like the perfect pitch folks do. Never occurred to me to practice perfect…

My experience with pitch memory is nearly identical to yours (but only 34 years playing cello, not 35). Absolute (perfect) pitch really does seem to be a whole different thing neurally, akin to (and perhaps actually related to) the difference between learning a language before a critical age and learning one afterwards. I'm gonna try to teach it to my kid, because, why not. Even if it's not that useful most of the ti…

I suggest not to do it. It is really painful in the orchestra when the orchestra has gotten sharper than what you are comfortable with and you have to play a minor third. I remember playing Mahler 2. The hall was hot as hell and the orchestra had risen from A441 to what must have been A445. I had to play a major sixth and it was borderline revolting.

I stopped practicing it after some experiences like that. Knowing what note to play by some absolute measure is only useful if you are playing alone. What you play in an ensemble is relative to a lot of other people.

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#246

Post by bjoli »

muffles wrote: post #201
vnorilo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cellist for the last 35 years here. No perfect pitch. My "perfect" note identification is based on timbre: I know what each note sounds like on the instruments I know intimately. For synthetic tones, I will be off +/- 3 semitones because I will be using an aural memory of the cello a string as a reference, rather than recognizing the frequency like the perfect pitch folks do. Never occurred to me to practice perfect…

> because, as you said, it is not that useful. Having perfect pitch can be useful for a lot of musicians, or educators, or composers in various ways, including: Improving accuracy in performance: Perfect pitch can identify and reproduce musical notes more accurately and quickly, which can help perform music with greater precision. Improving music education: Perfect pitch can help people teach music theory and composi…

I am an orchestra musician. Having perfect pitch was only trouble, despite playing in good orchestras at the time.

In the end of Ein Heldenleben the orchestra will not be the same pitch it started and, and for you to be in tune you will have to play notes that will be more than a quarter tone too high compared to what you think is correct.

I found it awful. The only orchestras I have played in that stayed in tune was the Swedish radio orchestra and the Munich Phil. But a major third is 13 cent low there as well.

And regarding most other things: I would have loved to have it during solfege exams. That is about it. The trouble it gave me when doing the work I studied to do it got in the way.

Most colleges I went to had special classes for students with perfect pitch as they were taught different strategies. In my final exam in "Gehörbildung" the two top scoring students did not have perfect pitch.

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#247

Post by bjoli »

psutor wrote: post #158
vnorilo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cellist for the last 35 years here. No perfect pitch. My "perfect" note identification is based on timbre: I know what each note sounds like on the instruments I know intimately. For synthetic tones, I will be off +/- 3 semitones because I will be using an aural memory of the cello a string as a reference, rather than recognizing the frequency like the perfect pitch folks do. Never occurred to me to practice perfect…

Same here, also as a former bassoonist - each note on the bassoon has extremely unique timbre, and I find it very easy to identify them. No perfect pitch for other instruments.

You should try it on the baroque bassoon. It works there as well, despite the notes being a half note too low.

Or even the dulcian. The low C is very much the same as the bassoon low C despite being either too sharp or too low depending on school.

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#248

Post by bjoli »

belter wrote: post #71
bjoli wrote: post #50

I am a professional musician (bassoon player in a symphony orchestra). I can, if I practice it a couple of times a week, achieve and sustain perfect pitch. I had no semblance of perfect pitch until I decided to practice it at age 24. Before that the only chance I had to guess a note was to put in in relation to my own voice. Even though I don't practice this anymore (it isn't very useful), I still often just instinct…

How far does it go on your own case? Are there degrees of it? Can you do the level harmony recognition like in the video below, or it's more the individual notes when played on it's own? https://youtu.be/hli-9maxDjY

Not quite that extreme. I could use it for harmonies if it wasn't too many dissonant notes because I couldn't tell the notes apart.

However, that is something I trained before doing the perfect pitch thing. Being able to pick apart harmonies is extremely useful. Having perfect pitch just made it a little easier.

I always found it hard on the piano. I wonder if it is related to the fact that everything sounds good on the piano, even things that are badly composed. Parallel fifths in a chorale on the piano? Sounds wonky but ok. In a chorus? Awful.

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#249

Post by bjoli »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #215
bjoli wrote: post #50

I am a professional musician (bassoon player in a symphony orchestra). I can, if I practice it a couple of times a week, achieve and sustain perfect pitch. I had no semblance of perfect pitch until I decided to practice it at age 24. Before that the only chance I had to guess a note was to put in in relation to my own voice. Even though I don't practice this anymore (it isn't very useful), I still often just instinct…

Do you recommend any routine to help a young child learn absolute pitch? I’m talking under 3 years of age.

I would have found it useful in school. At work it got in the way.

Unless your kid is going to.play one of those perpetually out of tune instruments like the piano I wouldn't recommend it. I had a horn colleague that had the crazy kind of perfect pitch (he still has, but he is retired) and perfect metronome tempo and all that. He called it a curse.

Re: Children aged 2-6 successfully trained to acquire absolute pitch (2012)

#250

Post by tomcam »

srcreigh wrote: post #213
tomcam wrote: post #34

My theory and composition teacher in college went through this same thing 100 years ago. I noticed she had a perfect pitch and asked her why. She told an identical story: that, at the kindergarten level, her entire class was taught how to recognize pitches. She was not impressed by her own ability, however, because her sister could identify the pitch of anything IRL, whether you kicked a rock, or you were listening t…

Did you ever test his ability to recognize pure sine waves? Ofc, each note is actually composed of ~40 frequencies at different levels (timbre). That’s why different instruments playing the same “frequency” sound different Heard somewhere that absolute pitch folks sometimes struggle with sine waves (no timbre)

We did it in a cumbersome way (the only one available), playing different frequencies of a pure sine wave from a vinyl record.
Post reply on HN