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Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

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Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#241
post #240
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, got it. I can see how my comments were inflammatory in this thread and will refrain from that in the future. On the other hand, I think a thread like this one also fits your description of ideological battle and flame war. It is very political and deeply biased, including inflammatory comments about imprisoning and killing people for their political ideology. We see that in threads about religion as well, which a…

HN actually has a guideline to address just that: " Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. " ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ). We can't exclude divisive topics altogether—that would not be consistent with the mandate of this site (see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... for lots of past explanation about why). So we…

I see your point of course, it's easy for me to think I'm right and these guys are wrong and they do probably think the same. That doesn't mean that neither of us is correct though. And you do draw the line somewhere. You would not allow a discussion to emerge here on whether pedophilia should be allowed, how Ukraine is actually an aggressor or about how the American elections were stolen - at least it seems that you moderate these topics swiftly. When similarly unhinged political topics emerge from more marginal countries like Brazil or India, I find that the discussion tends to be polarized by the interaction of users who really care about the topic, while most of the community stands aside. The problem is that most of these users are extremists. As a result, these threads devolve into toxicity and are very far from the standards we are used to seeing.

From my part I also contributed to that in this instance. I understand what you're trying to say and in the future I'll try to keep in mind your larger point - even if I firmly believe I'm right and I would like to convince someone, being rude or dismissive does not actually help, and certainly does not foster a good sense of community. So, I'm not trying to excuse the two comments you correctly called me out for.

On the other hand, perhaps you should consider that your own personal bias about what is legitimate discussion and what isn't is obviously limited by your own knowledge pool and bias. I would not expect you to know how close Brazil came to an actual military coup, or that this "Supreme Court dictatorship" discourse is the backdrop of the justification for a possible coup which is still a threat. I don't think much would be lost at all if these discussions are simply suppressed in HN, in the same way I see you delete submissions about the Ukraine war that are very clearly deranged. And if not, you really should not expect a calm, rational discussion starting around a perspective that defends dictatorship or war.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#242
post #241
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN actually has a guideline to address just that: " Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. " ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ). We can't exclude divisive topics altogether—that would not be consistent with the mandate of this site (see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... for lots of past explanation about why). So we…

I see your point of course, it's easy for me to think I'm right and these guys are wrong and they do probably think the same. That doesn't mean that neither of us is correct though. And you do draw the line somewhere. You would not allow a discussion to emerge here on whether pedophilia should be allowed, how Ukraine is actually an aggressor or about how the American elections were stolen - at least it seems that you…

I completely agree with you about how little I know, but I don't need to know much to moderate this site according to its guidelines. It's the other way around: people who do know are welcome to comment (and we hope they will!) but only if they stay within HN's rules.

> you really should not expect a calm, rational discussion starting around a perspective that [...]

I don't know about calm or rational but following the site guidelines is exactly what we expect, regardless of how divisive a topic is. As I said in the GP, a divisive topic makes that more important.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know they had the recordings. They just didn't release them because they obviously implicated Lula and his people. They literally buried Lava Jato. Biggest corruption scandal in the country and they erased it all. Lula actually gets to claim he's innocent, they dropped the charges. You think I trust anything these people "investigate"? Not a chance. I'll take my chances with the court of public opinion. It's got wa…

> They just didn't release them because Because the police wouldn't want to alert the people being investigated they were recorded committing crimes. > they obviously implicated Lula and his people There is no evidence in any recording made available. Quite the contrary - there is ample evidence of misconduct by the district's police that answers to the secretary of public safety, who was visiting Bolsonaro at the ti…

> mostly carryovers from the Bolsonaro government

Gonçalves Dias, the appointed head of GSI, also appeared in the videos and he was head of security for Lula for 8 years.

https://www.jota.info/eleicoes/quem-e-goncalves-dias-que-che...

Days prior to the events both ABIN (intelligence services) and PF (federal police) warned Flavio Dino (minister of law & order) of the build-up and he did nothing (which is a crime). Everyone in the country knew this thing was going to happen.

https://oglobo.globo.com/politica/noticia/2023/04/goncalves-...

https://oglobo.globo.com/politica/noticia/2023/04/atos-golpi...

I don't know the extent of the government involvement but it's clear that the government let the events happen to exploit them politically.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying the fine could be a reasonable decision, depending on their priorities. Paying the fine and providing the user data basically renders the whole service pointless, right? It is better to be blocked in Brazil than to be useless everywhere I guess.

Although Telegram still claims > To this day, we have disclosed 0 bytes of user data to third parties, including governments. https://telegram.org/faq and the Telegram transparency bot states when queried from Germany > No transparency report is available for your region. If any IP addresses or phone numbers are shared in accordance with 8.3 of the Privacy Policy, we will publish a transparency report within 6 months…

That's shady. The court order is very clear about what data was disclosed (IP address and registered phone number of the group admin), and why the court deemed it "not enough" (they wanted the data for all the group participants). https://www.conjur.com.br/dl/telegram-decisao-suspensao.pdf
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