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Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

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Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#241

Post by rstuart4133 »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #55
BryantD wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the US: the coal lobby has managed to get their product intertwined with culture wars and Manchin will reliably defect from the Democratic Party on related votes.

It's the same thing down here. The previous PM even famously brought a lump of coal into parliament.

He did. And he also convincing lost the next election.

In that loss the red/blue line didn't move a lot (it doesn't have to move much to get a change of government). But what is notable is that prime ministers party fractured. They lost a lot of seats to a bunch of business women.

Those women look to be of the same colour politically as the prime minister - free market, fiscally conservative. But in the lingo of the culture wars they aren't "woke". They care the legacy they hand their future selves and their children. They regarded dissing our largest trading partner to the point they sanctioned our imports (which lost us billions in trade income) to make a few woke points as insanity. The regard putting effort into fostering cooperation and "just getting" along as a priority.

Thus it looks to me is what happened to Australia's culture wars is one side of the war has won. Meanwhile in the US, it looks like the battles continue.

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#242

Post by panick21_ »

defrost wrote: post #232
panick21_ wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its really hard to find stats for refinement. I thought I had seen 90%, but I do not remember where. Your [1] seems to suggest its only 60%. So I might have been wrong on that.

My [1] states that : [ China ] also hosts 60% of the world’s lithium refining capacity for batteries. AND states that : Batteries == 74% of total lithium usage So that's 60 % of 74 % of global refining capacity (I'll leave the math for you) That's also a tad out of date as it fails to account for post 2020 refining plants and the coming changes as proposed plants (eg: Musk's super Texas plant) lay ground and get buil…

You need lithium refinement not just for batteries. You don't need lithium as poor for other applications, but its still has to be refined. So its more like 60% of all global lithium refinement.

China has less % of that in terms of battery materials production, as that is also very common in South Korea and Japan.

> and the coming changes as proposed plants

Yeah but its not only the rest of the world that has plans. Lithium refinement capacity in China is also growing.

Partly why Tesla is building the refinement plant is because of Chinas dominance.

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#243

Post by rstuart4133 »

roenxi wrote: post #135

Australia is also undergoing something of an energy crisis where our quality of life is at risk. I would not recommend our grid management policies to anyone. SA, famous for installing the Big Battery, is leading the charge with retail prices at ~35c/kWh [0]. These are policies that could very well mean that we have less energy available for use; mainly for ideological reasons. Someone is going to bear the brunt of t…

> SA, famous for installing the Big Battery, is leading the charge with retail prices at ~35c/kWh

Yes, SA's electricity prices are high. But they've always had the highest price in Australia because they have no coal or gas. What's pertinent here is SA's electricity prices are dropping, whereas in every other state electricity prices are going up.

Prices going up is sort of inevitable when you are replacing your generation. We are currently coasting along on 30 year of paid for coal plants that are reaching EOL. Someone has to pay for whatever replaces them. The mechanism was always going to be the old plants drop off, the price then goes up, then it becomes attractive for new generation to enter the market.

The frightening bit is it took SA about 17 years to go from 1% renewable to their current 80%, and only now are prices starting to drop. The rest of Australia has to go through the same transition, in less time.

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#244

Post by defrost »

panick21_ wrote: post #242
defrost wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My [1] states that : [ China ] also hosts 60% of the world’s lithium refining capacity for batteries. AND states that : Batteries == 74% of total lithium usage So that's 60 % of 74 % of global refining capacity (I'll leave the math for you) That's also a tad out of date as it fails to account for post 2020 refining plants and the coming changes as proposed plants (eg: Musk's super Texas plant) lay ground and get buil…

You need lithium refinement not just for batteries. You don't need lithium as poor for other applications, but its still has to be refined. So its more like 60% of all global lithium refinement. China has less % of that in terms of battery materials production, as that is also very common in South Korea and Japan. > and the coming changes as proposed plants Yeah but its not only the rest of the world that has plans.…

> So its more like 60% of all global lithium refinement.

This is poor reasoning.

> Lithium refinement capacity in China is also growing.

Falling in a relative sense, particularly now that the movement globally is against offshoring the filthy end of rare earth semi conductor, solar, battery, etc production to China.

China's dominance of REO production came as a result of a practice of shipping global concentrates to China .. in a production sense these are relatively low tonnages (dwarfed by iron ore etc shipping) .. and with large plants planned outside of China (eg the one linked above in Malaysia) there is now will be significant competition | options for locations where concentrates can be refined.

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#245

Post by danielheath »

thundergolfer wrote: post #240
danielheath wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not quite as extreme as the US, in the city center you can manage okay without, but it's mostly not an option.

You can manage fantastically, not merely okay, without a car in Sydney and Melbourne’s city and inner suburbs. Most people I knew who lived in those areas did not own a car and were better for it.

Fair, I lived in East Melbourne for a couple of years and having a car was entirely unnecessary.

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#246

Post by oska »

rstuart4133 wrote: post #241
AussieWog93 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same thing down here. The previous PM even famously brought a lump of coal into parliament.

He did. And he also convincing lost the next election. In that loss the red/blue line didn't move a lot (it doesn't have to move much to get a change of government). But what is notable is that prime ministers party fractured. They lost a lot of seats to a bunch of business women. Those women look to be of the same colour politically as the prime minister - free market, fiscally conservative. But in the lingo of the…

> He did. And he also convincing lost the next election.

A little bit of a correction needed here. Morrison brought the lump of coal to parliament in February 2017 [1] when he was the treasurer in Turnbull's government. A year and a half later, in August 2018, he betrayed Turnbull during a leadership contest (initiated by another contender) and became PM. He then went on to win the next election as PM, in May 2019. It wasn't until the following election (May, 2022) that he got booted out.

So that makes a bit over 5 years between his lump of coal stunt and losing power (2 elections later). I agree that his obnoxious, non-serious antics in the renewable energy / fossil fuel debate contributed to the rise of the 'Teal' independents that were pivotal in his loss of the 2022 election, but I don't think that stunt was a proximate cause, as you seem to be suggesting.

[1] https://theconversation.com/that-lump-of-coal-73046

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#247

Post by toomuchtodo »

0xy wrote: post #150
toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

TLDR battery storage can replace grid inertia (“ancillary services”) historically provided by thermal generators (coal and various forms of fossil gas). This is a distinct service/capability from energy arbitrage and has its own revenue stream. South Australia (where the Hornsdale Power Reserve was installed) runs a minimum of 80MW of fossil gas generation to provide these services (in concert with synchronous conden…

South Australia is building brand new gas peaking plants. Seems like fossil fuels continue to be a core pillar of their energy strategy.

Irrational decisions still occur occasionally.

https://www.energy-storage.news/no-longer-economically-ratio...

https://www.energy-storage.news/battery-storage-30-cheaper-t...

https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/resources/resources-hu...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#249

Post by stubish »

Ntrails wrote: post #217
einpoklum wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For people living in cities/towns, how much of an option is it to go car-less? Is it more like, say, Dutch cities, or more like in the US? Anyway, whenever I hear talk of promoting EVs without mass transit being mentioned together with it, my instinct is to assume it's some sort of an upwards-transfer-of-wealth scheme in which richer people get subsidized.

You're right, and I hate it for that reason. However there are not many other levers to be pulled, and any price reduction in what are expensive vehicles will benefit the wealthy. The obvious alternative (make ice vehicles more expensive) will actively hurt the poorer car owners more. I honestly don't see obvious better ways to drive ev uptake

We need more and cheaper models of EV vehicles on the market. Like there are in other countries. Without this you are correct, as the only cars on the market are only affordable by the wealthy.

Over here we are being told that something simple like stricter fuel emissions standards would cause manufacturers to release many more models of EV cars, and that would include more affordable models as well as driving down the costs (we are paying $36,000 USD for a Nissan Leaf, which is only $28,000 USD in USA and 'as low as $20,000' on their web site). Manufacturers still have a lot of capacity for producing cars they are unable to sell in many places, and Australia is a dumping ground. And manufacturers say it will remain so without incentives. Or perhaps if they are forced by new manufacturers such as ACE or BYD, if they are accepted by the market.

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#250

Post by aakresearch »

rippercushions wrote: post #32

Australia also has a remarkable tax incentive that lets you buy EVs basically tax free (fringe benefits tax exemption for novated leases, in bureaucratese). Basically, instead of paying $70k for a Tesla post-tax, you can get it deducted directly from your paycheck for around $45k pretax. The exact math depends on your income, and perversely enough the subsidy increases the more you earn and the higher your taxes, but…

Where is this fairy country Australia? Living at the western fringe of Greater Melbourne, any charging infrastructure is invisible here, I'm not sure it exists. And $45k or $70k alike both look incredibly expensive to me, I would never find a reason to justify such a purchase. Perhaps going to consider a second-hand deal when the price is below $10k and age is over 10 years, provided the longevity of the battery would look good for the next 10 years and there are "wagon" options on the market.

Honestly cannot understand who are those subsidies for. Recently I witnessed a few times a scene on a parking lot, which appeared to me as a group of overjoyed young people congratulating their happy mate about acquisition of a new ride (invariably a fancy Shelby Mustang or a mean-looking BMW, and invariably on their Ps) - you know, sniffing under the car, patting (the car and the lucky owner) on all surfaces, marveling from all distances. Laughing and selfying. The average age within all those groups, to my judgement, was around 16yo, so I highly doubt they could make full use of Salary Sacrifice incentive. And families like mine will always consider paying for a new car a complete waste. Going "carless" is also absolutely not an option, so if we must spend we're looking for maximum value and minimum outlay.

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