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Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

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Re: Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

#241

A few decades from now, when someone writes up an HBS case study on Google, how will it read? My suspicion is that Google is going to treat us to a very painful object lesson: what happens to your business when you compromise the values of a beloved core product. Here's the thing: having the most complete, most accurate, most relevant search results means never having to say you're sorry. You can add ads, you can do…

> And so this tool that used to do exactly what it was asked became too clever by half.

This is my perception of how Google evolved:

In the early days, it used to be like running grep on the whole internet but getting your results sorted by a very relevant algorithm (page rank). Then over the years they added a lot of features that fell into three categories:

* operators to run more powerful queries

* adding more complexity to the sorting of the results (localization, penalizing websites trying to game the algorithm, ...)

* adding widgets given the query (ups tracking, weather, calculator, ...)

These were all good, and I loved the fact that you could run some very clever and complex queries to get exactly what you wanted (and the googledorks were born...).

But recent improvements to Google have all been about "guessing what the user wants" (the best illustration of that is the search as you type) and while it's hard to argue about the validity of this approach my problem with it is that it won't give me any fallback options when it guesses wrong.

To be honest, Google does a very good job at guessing what I want. But the frustration caused by the few times it doesn't get it just makes me miss the "old google". And with every new recent improvement I keep being reminded of the MentalPlex [1]

[1] http://www.google.com/onceuponatime/mentalplex/

Re: Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

#242
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disturbing thing is that people here at news.yc -- hopefully a fairly informed bunch -- seemingly aren't able to see past the infuriatingly self-serving nature of a "Don't Be Evil Toolbar" created by "Facebook & Twitter" employees. And, Facebook, which happily used its dominance in social to lock out users from bulk-exporting contacts during the Google+ launch now complains that Google is leveraging its dominance…

I think the problem is that people feel forced into agreeing with Google's decisions when they don't, and people don't like being forced into doing something. As an example, say you won't use Google+ because you don't like their account naming policies. That's fine, don't visit plus.google.com, don't use it, and it doesn't exist to you. But when Plus results start appearing in search, a product that you like, you are…

Google+ is close to blackmail. Read what Rand from seomoz has written about it [1:2] (example quote: "[...] if SPYW continues to roll out to all logged-in Google users and Google stays as aggressive as it's been in the last 10 days with pushing Google+ for even logged-out users, the service will become a necessity for search and social marketers"). Google is using their dominance in search to create side benefits for using google+: you get your picture in organic results and massively increased clickthrough, amongst other benefits, by putting your content into google+ and playing the + game. This is a step past seo: seo was optimizing for google's algo, but now google's ranking algo forces you to push and likes/pluses content into their system. So once your competitors start using it, you have to as well.

Also, as you pointed out, I dislike social and dislike that products like that continue to intrude into my search results.

[1] http://www.seomoz.org/blog/why-every-marketer-now-needs-a-go...

[2] another rand video I can't find right now

Re: Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

#243
post #214
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I go to some trouble to research your question for you, but you reply in complaint without trying it out. e.g. try it with more than one language selected for search. You can also test your questions with specific queries (e.g. using terms that seem unlikely to be translated). Also, consider that you didn't know what results Google wasn't returning in the first place, years ago (e.g. by not having indexed them).…

To be absolutely clear, I'm complaining about Google, not you, and I already said Google's behavior is better for most users. I'm not really sure what more I can say to be "nice" and still be honest, because I am angry that I was missing search results because of a behind-the-scenes change that I would only have discovered if I was regularly checking my preferences to see if the choices I made have been superseded an…

[deleted]

Re: Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

#244
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding your first complaint, I find that 90% of the time the suggestion for a different spelling is in fact the search I wanted. The 10% of cases where I was searching for something obscure do stick out in my mind more, but I'm OK with that. They've optimized for the common case, typos, which is a win overall. I haven't noticed any extraordinary synonym replacements myself, though, the stem's always been the same.…

I seldom make spelling mistakes. I'd estimate that easily 95% of Google's "suggestions" are incorrect in my use case; and having to put the problematic word in quotes, rather than merely prepending a '+', is an editing chore. The one thing that annoys me most these days, however, is that it also searches for "bike" when I type "motorbike"; I get endless irrelevant results about cycling in many longer queries. I recal…

The search quality team loves to get specific examples of search results that you don't find helpful. If you are getting low quality results the best thing you can do is send them feedback.

You could use the form at - https://www.google.com/quality_form?q=google+search+quality&...

I doubt Amit Singhal would object to receiving a specific report about bad search results.

Re: Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

#245
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i find changing my search from standard google to; http://www.google.com/pda eliminates instant preview and instant results that really annoy me.

http://www.google.com/preferences If you disable Instant, you can also crank it up to 100 results per page. Hell, you can manually block gplus.google.com, facebook.com, and twitter.com and pretend the whole "social" thing never happened.

i do use that.

however i spend a substantial amount of time on other peoples systems and when using other peoples systems especially windows systems i avoid logging into google in case of malware. the default settings of google search are just garish these days.

i tried duckduckgo and while it was ok it just wasn't as good as google... yet. of course i'm not a fan of their new makeover either. i just prefer simple design.

Re: Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

#246
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about a single search satisfying all of those properties. I'm just saying I want them all as defaults: that is to say, I don't find it reasonable that I should have to go find the search options page and turn verbatim search off every time I'm about to make a search where synonyms might be helpful, and turn it on again every time I'm about to make a search which might be autocorrected.

...so, if you type something where synonyms might be helpful, it should automatically use synonyms... ...but, sometimes you want to type something that looks like it should be autocorrected, but you want it to not autocorrect it... ...and it's not enough that you can do these things - you want them to happen automatically? I'm sorry, but that is not "a search tool that does what you ask for," that's MAGIC that you wa…

I certainly can tell you about it, because robrenaud directed me to one in this comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3508005. I have just tested it and it does exactly what I asked for.

Re: Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

#247
post #226
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be absolutely clear, I'm complaining about Google, not you, and I already said Google's behavior is better for most users. I'm not really sure what more I can say to be "nice" and still be honest, because I am angry that I was missing search results because of a behind-the-scenes change that I would only have discovered if I was regularly checking my preferences to see if the choices I made have been superseded an…

> Not to mention that German is just one language You can add more than one language. If you'd checked up on it, you would have seen that. I perceive this as complaining about advice without following it, and I find it annoying. If you're still angry (and it sounds legitimate, especially if there was a subtle hint of a problem, but not enough to register fully), that explains where you're coming from, which puzzled m…

Not sure why I thought I couldn't respond to you directly, but I deleted the other comment and moved it here where it belongs:

Re the "just one language" thing, I can imagine I'm not making sense, because I'm not really communicating the context of how irrationally enraged I am over this. The truth is that I only enabled a couple of languages because I was just too angry and frustrated to enable the rest. I know it doesn't make any rational sense, but my reptile brain is telling me that goddammit, Google is not going to make me click on fifty little boxes just to fix them erasing my preferences. Not today. Not this user. There is a part of the brain that is trained to recognize when someone is jerking you around or abusing you, and when it gets triggered inappropriately, it is impossible to turn off. (I'm sure anyone who has worked in customer service will recognize what I'm talking about. Right now I am the bug-eyed paranoid who is convinced they are intentionally screwing with me for their own amusement.) So long story short, yes, it seems immensely important to me that I have to check fifty boxes instead of one, and I still don't have my unfiltered search results, not until I calm down enough to go click on all those boxes.

As for the problem of change, I can sympathize with the problem they face. I'm sure that globally minimizing user confusion and frustration is one of their goals. As for me personally, they'll have to count me in the "used the product incorrectly for years without realizing it and is now very angry about it" category.

UPDATE: EVEN ANGRIER:

So I swallowed my pride and went to work clicking.

"The page at https://www.google.com says:

The number of language restrictions is limited to 8, so only 8 of the languages selected will be saved."

That doesn't bode well. But then: "The page at https://www.google.com says:

Your preferences have been saved"

Ah, but guess which time it was lying :-/

So unless there's another way to turn off language filtering, Google will filter out every language besides your primary language and seven others. (Yeah, your interface language counts as one of the eight.)

That's terrible. Even without Google Translate, I swear I got useful information from a page in Polish once. Plus there are pictures, video, miscategorized pages, mixed-language pages (what happens with those?) and the simple coolness of finding out that someone in Vietnam is using an open-source library you committed a patch to. And of course, Google freakin' Translate! Unless Google is translating every single page it crawls. Which it might be -- that's something to think about. But it does very poorly with some pairs of languages, and if it filters out every term it can't translate, then it will tend to filter out commands and symbols. And here I am speculating about how it works again, which goes back to my original point.

With my track record today, I'm sure I'll find out I'm misinterpreting this somehow, but I'm starting to feel a little bit justified in my anger. Ah, I can't lie. I feel much less angry now that I feel like less of a fool :-)

Re: Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

#248
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that people feel forced into agreeing with Google's decisions when they don't, and people don't like being forced into doing something. As an example, say you won't use Google+ because you don't like their account naming policies. That's fine, don't visit plus.google.com, don't use it, and it doesn't exist to you. But when Plus results start appearing in search, a product that you like, you are…

Google+ is close to blackmail. Read what Rand from seomoz has written about it [1:2] (example quote: "[...] if SPYW continues to roll out to all logged-in Google users and Google stays as aggressive as it's been in the last 10 days with pushing Google+ for even logged-out users, the service will become a necessity for search and social marketers"). Google is using their dominance in search to create side benefits for…

How do you feel about non-social things in your search results, like maps or videos? If pictures are a big deal in SEO, it seems like everyone would be communicating via video. Ultimately, I think relevancy is what "converts" people.

Also, I don't get the big push on "SEO". Just buy an ad and now you're above all the organic results anyway.

Re: Larry Page to Googlers: If You Don’t Get SPYW, Work Somewhere Else

#249
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google also has an ongoing PR problem with regard to privacy, with Eric Schmidt (sp? the recently ex-ceo dude) going on record as saying he doesn't believe in privacy. Facebook at least pretends to care about privacy and then screws the user, whereas Google just skips to step B

Google has a team whose job is to make sure privacy needs of the user are met: http://www.dataliberation.org/

The Data Liberation program is all about being able to move your data from google to anywhere else. It has nothing to do with privacy.
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