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What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

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Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#241

Post by mynameisvlad »

Agentlien wrote: post #53
mcv wrote: post #29

I'm so that guy. Not for security clearance, but medical questionaires. I always fill them in with total honesty, listing the most minor and irrelevant details if they fit the question. My wife keeps telling me not to fill that stuff in, and she's quite the opposite, giving the preferred answer everywhere, even when I think: "but shouldn't you mention that thing?" Of the two of us, she's the one who has tons of exper…

Sometimes you just can't win, though. I used to work for a Swedish company making training simulations for surgeons. There are of course special rules regarding customs declarations of medical equipment. Our salespeople often complained that when entering the U.S. it was basically a coin toss if the customs agent would be angry with them for declaring our simulator as "medical equipment" and wasting their time, or ge…

I had the same problem with something so much more benign than that.

I was a Green Card holder. Technically, you need your card and foreign passport to enter the country.

I got yelled at for giving them my passport once, with the guard claiming it’s useless and not needed. So then I started having it on hand but not providing it on the spot, at which point I’d get yelled at for not providing the needed passport upfront. It’s almost as if they like yelling more than consistently following rules.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#242

Post by duped »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #149

When I moved to Canada, at age 16-17 I initially failed a lot of job applications at places like Staples, Future Shop, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. For some reason, many of them had a type of "Corporate Personality Test" on their application, and asked the same "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes". Apparently this was an automatic deal-breaker; there was no f…

I think you're misunderstanding the difference between answering questions truthfully and how your answers are received.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#243

Post by sizzzzlerz »

JamesSwift wrote: post #166
technothrasher wrote: post #67

"Here, fill it out again and don't mention that." I had the exact same experience when applying for a clearance while I was in college, for the "have you taken illegal drugs" question. When I honestly answered yes, the interviewer got fidgety and then asked, "well do you take them now?" no. "Do you know any drug users?" We're on a college campus, what would you like me to say? "Well, are you friends with any of them?…

For the written form, I've always been told to be 100% truthful. During the polygraph though I've had several antagonistic interactions similar to yours. Its all part of the game though at that point. They are trying to get under your skin. My personality does not play well in that scenario. Glad to be out of that line of work now, and I generally say no to anyone asking if I'd be open to having a clearance again.

Over my years working for defense contractors, I've held clearences from multiple agencies and have gone through 5 or so polygraph tests. In everyone of them, the examiners were professional in every sense of the word. They clearly explained the procedure, went over what questions were to be asked, and ran the tests calmly and fairly. I never had a reason to complain about any one of them. Now, I didn't like to be tested but it was part of process to get and hold the clearance so I could do my job so I went through it. I never heard of any of my colleagues complain either. Still, every job has its assholes and you were unlucky to encounter one.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#244

Post by leoqa »

Symmetry wrote: post #225
robcohen wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police typically have a 5 year period they want for zero drug involvement. The military is more dependent on the position and clearance level, but the max limit numbers are arbitrarily set. They set the numbers high enough to make recruiting possible, but it isn’t based off of any science.

I meant that lying was more acceptable on police applications because police, in the course of their duties, often have to lie whether its telling a suspect that you have proof of their guilt and they just need to confess or using boilerplate language like "there was a strong smell of marijuana" to justify a search in the paperwork whether you smelled anything or not.

This is absolutely not the case. Law enforcement background checks are more intense than clearance, and drug use policies are very black-white.

The general principle is that you must be unimpeachable such that your testimony is valid in court.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#245

Post by JamesSwift »

sizzzzlerz wrote: post #243
JamesSwift wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the written form, I've always been told to be 100% truthful. During the polygraph though I've had several antagonistic interactions similar to yours. Its all part of the game though at that point. They are trying to get under your skin. My personality does not play well in that scenario. Glad to be out of that line of work now, and I generally say no to anyone asking if I'd be open to having a clearance again.

Over my years working for defense contractors, I've held clearences from multiple agencies and have gone through 5 or so polygraph tests. In everyone of them, the examiners were professional in every sense of the word. They clearly explained the procedure, went over what questions were to be asked, and ran the tests calmly and fairly. I never had a reason to complain about any one of them. Now, I didn't like to be te…

Thats.... the exact opposite of my experience lol. I was at a 3 letter agency for ~5 years and close to everyone I knew failed the first poly of every round. IMO its a ploy to raise the stakes and get you on edge.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#246

Post by ceautery »

drfuchs wrote: post #169

Les Earnest's original 1986 "bboard" posting of this story, and other related ones, are to be found in the dump of the Sail backup tapes archived at https://www.saildart.org/BB.MSG[MSG,LES] Search for "Finger flex" / "e-t-a-o-i-n Spy", "Kick the Mongrel" / "White Faces in New Places", and "The Missed Punch" / "Mongrel in a Star-chamber" for the the F.B.I. and security clearance entries. As one might imagine from thes…

Yep, still alive. He plans on being shot in the back while fleeing from a jealous husband in 2043, according to his Stanford bio[1]

1 - https://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#247

Post by mynameisvlad »

yosito wrote: post #25
Reubend wrote: post #4

> I learned by chance that putting certain provocative information on a security clearance form can greatly speed up the clearance process. But that is another story. Did he ever write about what that trick is?

This is an interesting point. I once had to fill out a security clearance form for a job at NASA detailing every individual I had had contact with outside of the US in the last 10 years. Since I've traveled extensively internationally, and couldn't even begin to mention all the people I've been in contact with, I just wrote an essay explaining my lifestyle. I expected to get denied, but I got security clearance faste…

I’ve always wondered, as an immigrant, how they would expect someone like me to answer that question.

My entire family are outside the US. A big chunk of the people I interact with are friends who also moved down to the states and are not citizens yet. I probably interact with non-citizens daily more than citizens. It would be practically impossible for me to detail everyone I ever interacted with 10 years ago while I was at a Canadian school getting my degree.

The whole thing is so absurd for anyone who has ever been outside of the US even once.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#248

Post by devde »

Been there, made this mistake. Recently pursued an SF-85 public trust for work and under the "have you ever accessed or attempted to access a computer system without prior authorization" question I detailed at length my exploratory research into penetration testing, including how I discovered (and reported) that a school computer system had _domain admin_ credentials of admin:password, among other privilege escalation bugs I had found and reported.

Yeah, that did _not_ get approved.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#249

Post by anthomtb »

technothrasher wrote: post #67

"Here, fill it out again and don't mention that." I had the exact same experience when applying for a clearance while I was in college, for the "have you taken illegal drugs" question. When I honestly answered yes, the interviewer got fidgety and then asked, "well do you take them now?" no. "Do you know any drug users?" We're on a college campus, what would you like me to say? "Well, are you friends with any of them?…

My first clearance interview, about 10 years ago, it was all going along just fine. I had the standard litany of "bad" things any early 20-something American guy gets into - a few mushroom trips, an alcohol ticket, friends from foreign countries. No deal-breakers so long as you are honest and I answered honestly.

The only stumbling block came when the interviewer asked "have you smoked marijuana?". I truthfully answered no. The interviewer suddenly changed from bored old lady to the hardened, ex-cop that I suspect she was, glared into my soul and asked again. "No", I answered once again. "Well, that does not check out with your background. We will have to ask around on that one." She did ask around, my friends corroborated my story and I got the clearance.

My background involved undergrad education at a #1 party school, in a college town where open marijuana usage was common well before being legalized. And I had casual experimentation with other drugs (the aforementioned shrooms) and plenty of alcohol usage. I was probably the only one in my college acquaintance circle that didn't smoke on a semi-regular basis. I sometimes think I could have lied and said "yes I smoked weed", and still gotten the clearance. It would have actually been less of a red flag for the investigator(s).

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