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3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

reuters.com

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Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#241

Post by throwaway2037 »

XorNot wrote: post #156
jraby3 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try really hard not to use single use plastic. Especially plastic bags, plastic bottles, etc. This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days but will wait till I get home or to work to drink filtered water out of the tap. I went to Las Vegas about a year ago on a work trip and realized that the hotel I stayed at uses more plastic bottles in an hour than I would use in my lifetime with no though…

Single use plastics literally don't matter if they end up in landfill. The vast majority of plastics in the ocean are coming from about 5 rivers in China. Plastic in a landfill is fine, it's a no-op: oil comes out of the ground, does not get burned into CO2 in the atmosphere and then will go and sit in the ground for several thousand years (or more likely, we'll dig it all back up once energy is cheap enough that it…

You wrote: > I tried to Google about it but found nothing. Where did you learn about it?

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#242

Post by throwaway2037 »

tim333 wrote: post #214
oblio wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your article doesn't say what you're saying. Your article says that the tragedy of the commons does not have to happen, but we don't really have the numbers. Those examples could be cherry picking, and everyone's personal experience kind of says that the opposite is more common (commons mismanagement). That's why the original article was so influential: it gave a name to something we've always seen. It's great that w…

I live in Britain where the original commons were located and have yet to see a tragic one. The idea may apply to things like overfishing.

Do you think the overfishing situation will get better/worse/same after Brexit?

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#243

Post by zug_zug »

awestroke wrote: post #149
BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #98

> ...sued by California's attorney general to recover clean-up costs. So what are the clean-up costs? Is it even possible or do they just clean up the most urgent parts?

The cost of processing all of earth's oceans, freshwater and groundwater to remove these chemicals. Quite the cost.

Why is this downvoted? Literally the next breath of air you breathe will be contaminated with PFAs. Every fetus will have measurable PFA in its bloodstream before it's even born.

https://www.epa.gov/pfas/pfas-explained

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#244

Post by brohee »

dmd wrote: post #213
jraby3 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try really hard not to use single use plastic. Especially plastic bags, plastic bottles, etc. This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days but will wait till I get home or to work to drink filtered water out of the tap. I went to Las Vegas about a year ago on a work trip and realized that the hotel I stayed at uses more plastic bottles in an hour than I would use in my lifetime with no though…

About 20 years ago, I made a mistake at work which I later calculated put an extra 8500 metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere. (It had to do with the delay/routing of a cargo ship.) There is literally nothing I could possibly do that could come even close to making up for that...

You can plant 8500 trees. Various entities do it for as little as $1 per tree (e.g. https://onetreeplanted.org/). If that stops you sleeping that's possibly affordable.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#245

Post by Jolter »

adrian_b wrote: post #233
Jolter wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you one product or process where it’s indispensable? I’m not being argumentative, just curious, as I’m not a chemist. I know it’s already being replaced in ski waxes and I’m pretty sure they have alternatives for firefighting foams?

In a typical consumer home, there are very few, if any, uses where fluoropolymers are indispensable. On the other hand, for most kinds of chemical manufacturing and of chemical analyses fluoropolymers are truly indispensable. Before the invention of the fluoropolymers, some of the chemical reactions that are done now in vessels made of fluoropolymers could not be done at all, while the others were done in platinum ve…

Thank you for obliging me, that's very interesting!

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#246

Post by dsfyu404ed »

p1necone wrote: post #23
missedthecue wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PFAS are used because there isn't a better alternative. A globally coordinated reduction in production only increases the price of products for consumers.

> A globally coordinated reduction in production only increases the price of products for consumers. Which is great. Higher prices = less usage. We don't have to eradicate them entirely before we see any benefit.

>Which is great. Higher prices = less usage.

Don't lie to us by not mentioning the tradeoffs.

Reduced standards of living = less spare f-s to give about abstract big picture issues (like pollution and climate change).

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#247

Post by jankeymeulen »

atombender wrote: post #206
bushbaba wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the metal water bottles come with a plastic liner to avoid the metallic taste

Some also come with a non-stick (Teflon-type) coating. Zojirushi makes incredibly nice vacuum-insulated bottle [1] that unfortunately has a non-stick liner. The inside of the bottle is super easy to clean, but the chemicals used in the manufacturing are awful. [1] https://www.zojirushi.com.hk/enproductsview.php?oid=6&tid=17...

Good you mention a teflon-type coating in a discussion about 'forever chemicals'.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#248

Post by mensetmanusman »

feet wrote: post #195
smilekzs wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, there's always a metallic residual taste in my water whenever I use a stainless steel bottle. Got tired and returned to using normal mugs.

Glass is an option

Glass is heavy and causes transportation tires to generate more micro plastics on the highway and has a higher co2 emission burden.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#249

Post by mensetmanusman »

stuaxo wrote: post #139
runnerup wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

We should remember that the original tragedy of the commons didn't happen, the idea was based on false assumptions around how greedy people are. We could start by looking at how people managed systems sustainably including the original commons. https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false...

People act in their own self interest which is often at odds with the entire population’s interest. See: prisoner’s dilemma.

Tragedy of the commons is now defined in game theory and is a naturally occurring phenomenon when people have limited resources and the drive to survive.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#250

Post by throwanem »

opan wrote: post #227
Reason077 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days" Why not carry a reusable water bottle? I have a great double-wall steel bottle (Hydro Flask), which is much better than a plastic bottle because it keeps water cold all day long and is basically indestructible. In most places I travel to it's not difficult to find sources of clean, cold water to refill it. Worst case, I will buy a large bottle of…

>I have a great double-wall steel bottle (Hydro Flask), which is much better than a plastic bottle because it keeps water cold all day long and is basically indestructible. They actually dent quite easily. I have a 40oz Hydro Flask with a couple dents from an incident with a spider a couple years ago. I had my bottle on the counter top while I was eating and suddenly a spider was on it. In an attempt to kill the spid…

I've had good luck with Simple Modern steel bottles, including back when I still hiked and did urbex and kept one strapped to the side of my backpack. It came through everything from scrambling up and down steep forested hillsides to getting bounced off crumbling masonry with little more than the occasional chip or scratch to the finish. I've dropped it plenty of times too, of course, and it's likewise survived unscathed.

I can't vouch for its durability when used to beat a spider to death because I'm not afraid of tiny harmless animals, but in every other respect I have nothing but praise.

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