The strange case of Britain’s demise • Hacker News Board

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#241

Post by raincom » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:15 PM UTC

> Brexit has also institutionalised lying in British politics,

Lying is institutionalized long before Brexit. That's why the British is called "Perfidious Albion".

Look at how Jean-Jacques Rousseau said in 1762: "The people of England regards itself as free, but it is grossly mis- taken; it is free only during the election of members of parliament. As soon as they are elected, slavery overtakes it, and it is nothing.The use it makes of the short moments of liberty it enjoys shows indeed that it deserves to lose them."

"The Russians, a Cambridge don noted, ‘consider the English as a mercenary nation’ and one of their princes publicly declared that ‘in England there is not an individual, patriot, or placeman, who is not saleable to the highest bidder’."

Citing from "Cultures Differ Differently" by SN Balagangadhara, Routledge, 2022.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#242

Post by benj111 » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:17 PM UTC

makomk wrote: post #127

petesergeant wrote: post #4

I feel like the article lays it out pretty well? It’s a government who’s been in power too long, whose talent base was massively thinned by a Brexit Purity witch hunt and the impossibility of delivering the Brexit fairy-tale, and who weren’t simply ejected at the last election because of Corbyn’s overwhelming unpopularity.

The article is part of the problem. UK politics and the media narratives around it have beeen utterly wrecked by the fight over Brexit and the attempts to give its creators the boot. For example, take this claim: "Investment is down and inflation higher than it would have been inside the European Union." The UK's inflation in the year to November 2022 was 10.7%, compared to 10.1% in the Eurozone. It just doesn't seem…

10.7% v 10.1% is 0.6%. how long before that compounds into a sizable figure?

I never really bought into the doomsday scenarios. Just a slow slide of Spanish package holidays getting more expensive and people not connecting the dots.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#243

Post by mjfl » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:17 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #240

mjfl wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't a parliamentary system effectively proportional representation? It's just prime minister that's first past the post, but from a proportional vote in parliament? Labour is not going to save Britain. They are just going to redistribute money that is more and more and more "not there" anymore. The EU is not going to save Britain, they are having a crisis too. Nothing will save Britain, it is doomed for the next co…

> Isn't a parliamentary system effectively proportional representation? Not necessarily. Imagine a country with four parties. In each constituency, they respectively get 40%, 30%, 20%, and 10% of the vote. Under FPTP, parliament is made up of all reps from the 40% party, shutting out other voters. Under PR, depending on variety you'd get results closer to the distribution of the votes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P…

But I don't think that's how it works? I think parliament works proportionally?

See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingd...

It is not the case that the conservative party got all the seats.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#244

Post by samwillis » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:18 PM UTC

dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

> If Labour win the next election their position will be very fragile, and I’m unsure they will get more than one term.

This is my expectation, the Conservatives will have been able to "clean house" and remove a significant number of MPs who now have too much baggage. I expect a Labour government to struggle through the end of a recession, and have significant infighting.

The conservatives will capitalise on that and could take back control.

I just really hope Labour push through significant electoral reform in their first term.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#245

Post by mixtur2021 » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:21 PM UTC

nine_zeros wrote: post #144

As an outsider, but generally appreciative of British culture's influence on me, I was (and continue to be) flabbergasted with Britain's inward outlook. For the vast majority of British history, Brits were only wealthy when they traded outside. The trade took various forms such as East India company, trading outposts, industrial trade outside the island, colonization, financial capitalization etc. Britain ruled the s…

UK issued one million Visas last year: https://workpermit.com/news/uk-visas-issued-one-million-peop...

New Visas are being introduced for skilled/semi skilled: https://aristonesolicitors.co.uk/news/new-uk-visas-set-to-la...

UK is NOT trying to emulate North Korea. This is a bad faith statement. Those countries (USA, China, Singapore) you mentioned are not in the EU Common Travel Area either.

On trade, the UK is negotiating new trade deals: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... A fair criticism is that this hasn't gone far enough yet.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#246

Post by prof-dr-ir » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:23 PM UTC

PaulRobinson wrote: post #180

prof-dr-ir wrote: post #35

As a former inhabitant of England, I always thought that those in charge suffered from a uniquely wide 'competence gap' which I would like to define as the difference between someone's self-perceived competence and someone's actual competence. (The term is probably useful more broadly...) Maybe it is the historically class-based society alluded to in the article, but it always stunned me how those at the top, and in…

I'd like to suggest you take a look at almost everything done in power by George W. Bush, Donald Trump, François Holland, Paul von Hindenburg, Silvio Berlusconi, Brian Cowen, Jair Bolsonaro... the list could go on... and compare and contrast and then ask if this is subjectively a phenomenon truly unique to the UK. Bad leadership of the type you describe has shown itself in every country in the World at some point. th…

I would like to stress that the gap I speak of is not about stupidity or competence in itself; instead it is about being oblivious to one's own incompetence.

For example, I think that people like Trump, Berlusconi, Cheney, etc. are not in the same class. They are certainly bad leaders, but largely because they are selfish grifters who care little about their country. On the other hand people like Cameron, Rees-Mogg, Johnson and Truss seem to really believe that they are destined to lead the country (to greatness) and that, for them at least, it "cannot be that hard".

So I sense a real difference here, and introducing the "competence gap" was my way to try to make it precise. But maybe there is a better way to formulate it. Arrogance perhaps? (And of course such personalities are not unique to the UK, but I did find them more widespread there.)

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#247

Post by bojan » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:25 PM UTC

digianarchist wrote: post #239

raverbashing wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially Corbyn, though of course he couldn't "support it" outright because that would mean agreeing with Tories (and he couldn't oppose it outright without angering a lot of Labour members)

Another rewrite of history. He backed Remain.

Very reluctantly, and probably against his own better judgment, at least that was the impression he created.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#248

Post by marcusverus » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:26 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #191

dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

>Now that the implications are becoming clear, a majority want to return to the EU Why not simply have regional votes to separate from the UK and join the EU? Scotland tried not that long ago.

Our legacy governments make this very difficult.

Sadly, while many of our governments readily adopted the concept of representative democracy, they retained other oppressive aspects of the ancient systems which they replaced. The old monarchies claimed a right to rule their subject peoples in perpetuity, deriving their power directly from God. Our modern governments claim the same thing! Instead of that divine right flowing directly from God to the state, it flows from God, through your forbears who created the government, to the state. Isn't that slick? They derive their legitimacy from man's divine right to choose his own government, while simultaneously denying that YOU have such a right! It's the 'ole divine right to rule with extra steps.

So while you can choose who controls your government via democratic means, you'll have a helluva time choosing a new government, since the old government will waive the crusty old document that your great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather signed and say that you are committing treason.

See the Catalan independence movement[0], or the official position of the UK government on the most recent Scottish independence referendum[1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/11/23/u...

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#249

Post by raverbashing » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:27 PM UTC

digianarchist wrote: post #239

raverbashing wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially Corbyn, though of course he couldn't "support it" outright because that would mean agreeing with Tories (and he couldn't oppose it outright without angering a lot of Labour members)

Another rewrite of history. He backed Remain.

I agree, pre-referendum he backed Remain, but after that his position was not so firm https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-ch...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/22/jeremy-corb...

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#250

Post by ben_w » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 11:30 PM UTC

monsecchris wrote: post #229

dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

> Instead it requires Labour to be a very broad house This is a severe disconnection from reality, the Labour party is totally ideologically possessed. 52% of the population voted for Brexit and not a single Labour MP supports it. Not a single Labour MP would ever dream of criticising the NHS system. Not a single Labour MP said a bad word about BLM. The Conservative party are so broad they have everything except actu…

Electorate has moved on since Brexit has actually happened, even if the number who would vote differently given what they know today is much smaller than you might expect given how few think it was done well.

Labour's highest poll result this year was 57%, which is kinda nuts even given who was PM at that point — 20 Oct, Omnisis: https://www.omnisis.co.uk/media/1133/vi-005-full-tabs-201020...