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Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

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Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#241

Post by ildon »

johndhi wrote: post #162

This is a crazy way of making laws, IMO. To recap: a law was put in place 5 years ago that said if you get consent you can basically use data in any way, with some very vague and general language about how consent can be gathered and what it means. Meanwhile, Facebook has invested billions of dollars in building and developing a platform according to their fair reading of that law. Then, some random guy says he doesn…

No court has decided over this. It's the decision of a regulator, so Meta will most likely appeal to a court, and then we will know what the law allows or not.

Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#242

Post by p0pcult »

JacobSeated wrote: post #161

Facebook should just start charging users that don't consent to tracking for targeted advertising. Etc. Problem solved, and we, the shareholders, will hopefully be happy too. It's been truly shit to own Facebook stock the last year.. Let's end this now and get back to writing the growth story. Please.

Or, let's just kill FB.

Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#243

Post by ErikVandeWater »

johndhi wrote: post #162

This is a crazy way of making laws, IMO. To recap: a law was put in place 5 years ago that said if you get consent you can basically use data in any way, with some very vague and general language about how consent can be gathered and what it means. Meanwhile, Facebook has invested billions of dollars in building and developing a platform according to their fair reading of that law. Then, some random guy says he doesn…

> To recap: a law was put in place 5 years ago that said if you get consent you can basically use data in any way, with some very vague and general language about how consent can be gathered and what it means.

The article makes it seem pretty straightforward:

> Meta explained that its updated terms rely on the GDPR concept of "contractual necessity". The GDPR mostly prohibits companies from forcing users to turn over personal information to use their services. The only exception is when that information is necessary to execute a contract: For instance, a car sharing app needs to know your location so that it can show cars near you.

For a car sharing app, it is necessary for them to get your location for the service to work. In Facebook's case, personalized ads are not necessary for Facebook to work. Since it isn't necessary, Facebook needs to get express permission to use personal information for ads.

Facebook took an overly optimistic view of the law expecting regulatory capture to allow them to skirt the rules. It didn't work, so their investment was a poor one. Regulators didn't force Facebook to make a poor investment.

Also, Facebook can decide to pay the users it tracks in Europe. Maybe the investment has poor returns, but the money hasn't entirely gone to waste yet.

Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#244

Post by Kalium »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #236
johndhi wrote: post #162

This is a crazy way of making laws, IMO. To recap: a law was put in place 5 years ago that said if you get consent you can basically use data in any way, with some very vague and general language about how consent can be gathered and what it means. Meanwhile, Facebook has invested billions of dollars in building and developing a platform according to their fair reading of that law. Then, some random guy says he doesn…

>Then, some random guy says he doesn't think Facebook's interpretation is right, a court agrees, and all of those billions of dollars have gone to waste. so when you say a crazy way of making laws, you mean the way that laws basically get made? >No regulator has had the idea of just going to Facebook, pretty sure there was all sorts of conversations with Facebook and others over at least 5 years where it was quite cl…

> so when you say a crazy way of making laws, you mean the way that laws basically get made?

I think what's being characterized as crazy is that the laws as written are at best vague. It takes years to find out what they actually mean in implementable detail. This makes it very difficult to comply.

Have you read through GDPR? I have. It talks a lot about "reasonable measures" and includes vast swaths of other laws while being very light on details. Compare to, for example, electrical codes. Those tend to be quite specific and clear with sharply limited room for interpretation.

With this in mind, I can see why someone might regard this as an insane way to create laws.

Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#245

Post by wpietri »

imiric wrote: post #230
wpietri wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that Meta ads another set of ways to fail. But this is the thing I want to question: > that market will only grow I too have read science fiction, so I get the theory. You know what else is in science fiction? 3D movies and 3D TV. But we've had 3 waves of 3D films (1950s, 1980s, 2000s) and it turns out nobody cares. And 3D TV fared even worse. And let's not forget the 1990 wave of actual VR, which al…

Sure, but you can say the same thing about electric cars and smartphones. Both have had several "failed" attempts, and it wasn't until the technology was mature, cheap and accessible enough that they reached mainstream adoption. There's nothing to say that the same thing won't happen with XR. If we consider transhumanism as something that's likely to happen, then XR can be viewed as a stepping stone towards that goal…

Yes, in the future anything is possible. But for any given chunk of the future, most possible things don't happen. The interesting question is which bucket a given thing falls into.

I think electric cars cut against your case here. The reason electric cars are becoming popular is that we're finally doing something about global warming. Governments are heavily using both carrot and stick via billions in subsidies and drastically tighter regulation on ICE vehicles. Unless you expect governments to try to end use of monitors, electric cars are an example of why we should be suspicious of facehugger VR.

Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#246

Post by QuietWatchtower »

mxkopy wrote: post #218
JacobSeated wrote: post #161

Facebook should just start charging users that don't consent to tracking for targeted advertising. Etc. Problem solved, and we, the shareholders, will hopefully be happy too. It's been truly shit to own Facebook stock the last year.. Let's end this now and get back to writing the growth story. Please.

Imagine writing something like this unironically and not immediately wanting to die of embarrassment Excuse me, 'growth story'? For Facebook ?? Time proves the shareholders vs. rest of society stereotype to be true, I guess

Right? I can't tell if this guy is being ironic or not lol

Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#247

Post by denton-scratch »

gameman144 wrote: post #216
hnlmorg wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, Facebook has invested billions of dollars in building and developing a platform according to their fair reading of that law. So often in the last 20 years I’ve seen companies (and particularly US tech companies, but it’s not exclusive to them) deliberately read more charitable interpretation of the law, knowing they'll make millions over and above any fines they might receive. It’s so common place that t…

It's definitely hard to say that big corporations are victims , but I know that I personally find lots of bog standard legalese hard to interpret. Granted, lawyers have a lot more experience there, and more employed gives lots more perspective. At the end of the day, they are still human, and laws and regulations are still written by humans, meaning that it can often be hard to suss out intent from the letter of the…

> standard legalese hard to interpret

Indeed. We should know what the law is, without first hiring a team of lawyers. There's a trend to make laws that are harder and harder for ordinary people to understand.

Partly that's a result of having to cut out exceptions and loopholes for lobbyists and donors; but I suspect it's largely because lawmakers are increasingly trained, practising lawyers. If the language you speak is legalese, I guess that's the language you use to write laws.

Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#248

Post by detaro »

johndhi wrote: post #162

This is a crazy way of making laws, IMO. To recap: a law was put in place 5 years ago that said if you get consent you can basically use data in any way, with some very vague and general language about how consent can be gathered and what it means. Meanwhile, Facebook has invested billions of dollars in building and developing a platform according to their fair reading of that law. Then, some random guy says he doesn…

> No regulator has had the idea of just going to Facebook, having a real conversation about what they're doing, then talked about it with ethics professionals and researchers and tried to draft a forward-looking law that will make the whole system better?

Many would argue that that's what happened, Facebook choose to bet a few billions on trying to get around it by trying to argue loopholes into the interpretation and is now getting told to knock that off a bit more forcefully.

Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#249

Post by wpietri »

RajT88 wrote: post #139
imiric wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meta is betting on the long term. They're the leader of a very niche market _now_, but as XR technology improves, that market will only grow, and Meta will be ready for it, with years ahead of the competition at that point. That's their bet, anyway, and we can speculate whether it will come to pass or not. I'm inclined to think that the tech will eventually become mainstream, when headsets are as comfortable to wear…

Indeed, the big tech companies do not seem to understand what users want out of a VR experience. They want "Ready Player One", warts and all. Big Tech wants all the rough edges filed off, and for there to be little user control. This is why VRChat is so amazing and AltspaceVR is dull and uninteresting. Curated experiences with moderation and controls to prevent copyright infringement don't have broad appeal. A few of…

Thanks! I really appreciate a comment from an actual VR user describing actual VR use. I find the "but in theory it works great so let's ignore the problems" replies tiresome after a while.

How often would you say you use VRChat? I'm especially interested in things that people use in the same way they'd use Facebook or Twitter: multiple times per week and as a default activity when they're bored.

Re: Facebook tracking is illegal in Europe

#250

Post by 62951413 »

johndhi wrote: post #162

This is a crazy way of making laws, IMO. To recap: a law was put in place 5 years ago that said if you get consent you can basically use data in any way, with some very vague and general language about how consent can be gathered and what it means. Meanwhile, Facebook has invested billions of dollars in building and developing a platform according to their fair reading of that law. Then, some random guy says he doesn…

Move fast and break things (C)
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