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The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

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Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#241

Post by luckylion »

IncRnd wrote: post #215
luckylion wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon doesn't accept cash. Is cash not money? They don't accept $foreignCurrency either, is that no longer money when you cross the border? Or do you mean "money is what you can use to pay your taxes"? That works to exclude crypto, at least for most of the world.

Of course Amazon accepts cash. Cash on Delivery is one way. [1] Other ways are listed on Amazon's webpage entitled "Shop on Amazon, pay in cash". [2] Also, Amazon has teamed up with Western Union for your cash oriented shopping needs. [3] [1] https://www.amazon.eg/-/en/gp/help/customer/display.html?nod... [2] https://smile.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=19428273011&sa-no-re... [3] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019…

So, it's "in egypt", and "yeah, you can use your cash at a bank that will send it to us digitally, because we don't take cash".

Obviously Amazon supports system that let you convert cash into digital, but that's something else.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#242

Post by Kye »

monero-xmr wrote: post #218
IncRnd wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A crypto exchange or vpn is not quite the same as a store that sells goods like groceries, clothes or electronics or services like a lawyer's time, a doctor's visit or a haircut. I don't see any mainstream websites listed on that website. Regular people are unable to use crypto as money for regular things.

VPN industry is multi-billion, crypto exchanges are multi-billion, hosting is multi-billion. These are real industries - I mean a lot of people on HN are employed in companies that support and provide data / server hosting. It starts with digital services and it spiders out from there. Enthusiasts who own retail stores accept crypto as a novelty or marketing strategy, but in 25 years it could be much more common.

>> "It starts with digital services and it spiders out from there."

Silk Road was 11 years ago.

When?

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#243

Post by miracle2k »

cornholio wrote: post #235
koonsolo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do not have a conflict of interest are more likely to share their real understanding. Understanding of what? The technical side? It seems HN seems hell bent over discussing all the scams and get-rich schemes, and completely discards the cool technology and things that it enables (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31996612 again, as stated before). > the latest rugpull DeFi Yep, exactly as I stated, focus on…

You cannot divorce the technical side from the garbage crypto brings. Yes, crypto has good privacy preserving properties, that unfortunately are equally effective for $5 as they are for $5 billion. The legitimate use case for that is infinitesimal compared to the abuse potential, and even if we accept the whole black-market use of crypto as legitimate, that's still a small fraction of the speculation-driven valuation…

> You cannot divorce the technical side from the garbage crypto brings.

> Those who understand the technical features can see there is nothing there to justify the hype,

I'm confused, is it bad tech or is it undesirable effects?

Technical critics flatter themselves too much about their supposed understanding. It's political, not technical. We need crypto for the same reason why need to keep the cash economy alive.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#244

Post by rosnd »

mrkeen wrote: post #145
rosnd wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you reply to the wrong comment? > Obvious enough to anyone who actually understands how bitcoin, or eth work, it does not fit the definition of a ponzi scheme. This is indeed obvious to anyone who knows what both of those things are. He very clearly explained where they got it wrong.

Maybe the post was edited? I don't see the clear explanation. Here's an exercise, I'll replace a bunch of words with their opposites, and present it as my counter argument: "This is a great argument, and not clickbait. Obvious enough to anyone who actually understands how bitcoin, or eth work, it fits the definition of a ponzi scheme." Are you convinced? Do you know where you got it wrong?

Cryptocurrency is as much a ponzi as it's a car.

Cryptocurrency in general is not an investment promising profits, but a tool for payments (or a smart contract platform, whatever).

A Ponzi scheme is a fraud which takes money from investors, pretends to invest it in something profit-generating, but only pays out profits to earlier investors using funds from more recent investors.

Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin, ethereum or monero are nothing like a ponzi scheme. There's zero pretence that it would be a profitable investment. Who would even be paying you these ponzi-dividends?

It's utterly stupid to make me spell this out, presumably anyone making the claim that "The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi" should know what those things are.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#245

Post by cornholio »

miracle2k wrote: post #243
cornholio wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot divorce the technical side from the garbage crypto brings. Yes, crypto has good privacy preserving properties, that unfortunately are equally effective for $5 as they are for $5 billion. The legitimate use case for that is infinitesimal compared to the abuse potential, and even if we accept the whole black-market use of crypto as legitimate, that's still a small fraction of the speculation-driven valuation…

> You cannot divorce the technical side from the garbage crypto brings. > Those who understand the technical features can see there is nothing there to justify the hype, I'm confused, is it bad tech or is it undesirable effects? Technical critics flatter themselves too much about their supposed understanding. It's political, not technical. We need crypto for the same reason why need to keep the cash economy alive.

Let me quote again the section relevant to your confusion:

> even if we accept the whole black-market use of crypto as legitimate, that's still a small fraction of the speculation-driven valuation.

So the major problem is the financial overvaluation relative to the real technical abilities, the minor problem is that even those features are predominately enablers of nefarious activities such as money laundry. The second problem is indeed a political objection of mine, but there is no contradiction with the technical lack of value which most HNers object to.

> We need crypto for the same reason why need to keep the cash economy alive.

But that's not the reason the crypto bubble inflated, far from it. We could talk about privacy enabling features inspired by crypto in electronic payment systems without trying to reinvent fiat currencies in the form of private money which we know full well are a bad idea.

Physical cash is to crypto what amateur rocketry is to sending ITAR info to North Korea, or personal handguns to nuclear proliferation: there is a scale where a certain behavior that is acceptable and beneficial at the individual level becomes a major problem for society as a whole.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#246

Post by lrvick »

nikanj wrote: post #90
lrvick wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is economic value in inflation resistance, censorship resistance, and privacy. The fact most get-rich-traders do not care about these things and -also- speculate is irrelevant to the fundamental value.

Tell me how many BTC a new TV is going to be in two years, I'll tell you how many USD it'll be. As a stable, inflation-resistant currency, the BTC value should be easy to predict

The simple moving average for 1BTC should be around $50,000, so a $500 TV will be about 0.01BTC.

Hype or fear may drive the price higher or lower than that, but if you regularly buy and spend bitcoin then the swings average out back to the simple moving average over time, which reliably increases against USD.

I get paid a fixed USD amount of Bitcoin every month regardless of price so my exposure to it similarly averages out.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#247

Post by stephc_int13 »

SparkyMcUnicorn wrote: post #237
stephc_int13 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it is pretty easy, crypto value is built either on Ponzi or on the Greater Fool principle. National currencies, issued by states are not a scam.

So crypto is more similar to stocks? Saying they're all scams just because of that seems harsh.

No, stocks are not tied to thin air.

Stocks can crash, and some of them are scams, but most of them are not, contrary to crypto.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#248

Post by koonsolo »

cornholio wrote: post #245
miracle2k wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot divorce the technical side from the garbage crypto brings. > Those who understand the technical features can see there is nothing there to justify the hype, I'm confused, is it bad tech or is it undesirable effects? Technical critics flatter themselves too much about their supposed understanding. It's political, not technical. We need crypto for the same reason why need to keep the cash economy alive.

Let me quote again the section relevant to your confusion: > even if we accept the whole black-market use of crypto as legitimate, that's still a small fraction of the speculation-driven valuation. So the major problem is the financial overvaluation relative to the real technical abilities, the minor problem is that even those features are predominately enablers of nefarious activities such as money laundry. The seco…

Ah come on, crypto a "major problem for society", get real.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#249

Post by monero-xmr »

Kye wrote: post #242
monero-xmr wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VPN industry is multi-billion, crypto exchanges are multi-billion, hosting is multi-billion. These are real industries - I mean a lot of people on HN are employed in companies that support and provide data / server hosting. It starts with digital services and it spiders out from there. Enthusiasts who own retail stores accept crypto as a novelty or marketing strategy, but in 25 years it could be much more common.

>> "It starts with digital services and it spiders out from there." Silk Road was 11 years ago. When?

The first electric car was made over 100 years ago and they are still only a fraction of all the cars on the road. Revolutionary tech doesn’t always take over in 10 years let alone 100.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#250

Post by [deleted] »

luckylion wrote: post #241
IncRnd wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course Amazon accepts cash. Cash on Delivery is one way. [1] Other ways are listed on Amazon's webpage entitled "Shop on Amazon, pay in cash". [2] Also, Amazon has teamed up with Western Union for your cash oriented shopping needs. [3] [1] https://www.amazon.eg/-/en/gp/help/customer/display.html?nod... [2] https://smile.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=19428273011&sa-no-re... [3] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019…

So, it's "in egypt", and "yeah, you can use your cash at a bank that will send it to us digitally, because we don't take cash". Obviously Amazon supports system that let you convert cash into digital, but that's something else.

[deleted]
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