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Trolls (2008)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Trolls (2008)

#241

Post by pg »

zedshaw wrote: post #233
m0th87 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting HN's ranking algorithm biases toward YC-related content? Because that is a serious accusation. I realize YC job posts can disable comments, and there is a separate tab for open jobs. That's no big deal because the behavior is externally visible and obvious. If HN actually re-ranks articles to support YC content though, that is a big deal. And it's scary how that might subtly affect the Valley, give…

Never said ranking algorithm. I said, there's a bunch of links (like job postings and YC company PR posts) that get privileged front page status with their own decay algorithms, yet they aren't flagged as "promoted". They're just mixed in as if it's actually relevant news a bunch of people upvoted to the front page. Or how about all that crap that was on scribd back when nobody knew what scribd was? If you think this…

I said, there's a bunch of links (like job postings and YC company PR posts) that get privileged front page status with their own decay algorithms

You are mistaken. Only job postings have their own decay algorithm, and those are visually distinguished from stories by e.g. not having points or comments. All stories have the same decay rate.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#242

Post by iambvk »

metachris wrote: post #99

Which means that once trolling takes hold, it tends to become the dominant culture. That had already happened to Slashdot and Digg by the time I paid attention to comment threads there, but I watched it happen to Reddit. Reddit actually has a fascinating, rich culture. Trolling is just a part of it, but the community seems to be managing.

Yes, I think reddit is not as bad as many think. Given the huge size of reddit community, I guess, reddit has managed to retain a high quality humor and knowledge (eg: r/askscience). Their fu is one of the best source of innovative comics I ever found.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#243

Post by JoshTriplett »

billpatrianakos wrote: post #238
JoshTriplett wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downvote button means, literally, "this comment should appear less prominently, and its author should get a very small penalty for having written it". Similarly, upvote means, literally, "this comment should appear more prominently, and its author should get a very small reward for having written it". With that in mind, "perfectly valid" takes on a different light. While sometimes downvoting does get used to rein…

Sure, the examples I remember usually come up whenever there's a discussion over copyright and piracy. What I'll see is a discussion about whether piracy really hurts anyone with people arguing that it's free marketing and people who pirate wouldn't buy anyway. Then someone comes along and the subject moves on to open source vs free software. Someone says piracy is good because all software should be free. Then a bun…

Your example, to me, falls more in the category of "downvoted for retreading an old and tired discussion" than "downvoted for going against groupthink". Or, quite frequently, "downvoted for using HN as a soapbox rather than trying to contribute to the discussion". I find that the best comments in a discussion typically have at least some connection to the posted article, beyond simply discussing the same topic. The old and tired comments would work equally well in any number of other threads on different articles.

I don't tend to see groupthink as a problem in a community like HN. Sure, we tend to think about many things in the same ways (the ways we'd consider obviously right beyond any need for discussion, of course), but those tend to represent the boring topics anyway.

I do tend to follow the model you mention, ignoring mediocre stuff, rather than voting on everything. When I downvote things, I do indeed intend to suggest that people shouldn't bother reading it.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#244

Post by InclinedPlane »

KeithMajhor wrote: post #190
edw519 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes we hackers work too hard to make things more complicated than they need to be. I was referring to the hackers who use the forum, not the ones who run it. Sorry for the confusion. It really is much easier and more beneficial for everyone to just be nice . Why work harder to achieve less? A few strategies that have made it easier for me to "be nice": 1. Avoid long back and forth threads. Say what you have to…

"1. Avoid long back and forth threads. Say what you have to say and get back to work." If everyone followed all those rules I think this one would be detrimental. Seeing you smarter-than-me people go back and forth about stuff I'm right on the verge of understanding is pretty cool.

It depends on the reason for the back and forth. Is it to exchange new information and deepen the conversation or is it to retread the same ground and try to defend a point? When it's the latter it's rarely productive. If you were unclear the first time and someone misinterpreted you then perhaps take the time to make sure to be clearer in restating what you meant, but try not to go beyond that.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#245

Post by mirkules »

tomkarlo wrote: post #223
mirkules wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm actually worried that disagreeing with you will result in me getting hellbanned" Why do people worry about getting banned? It's just a screen name, it's not like you can't just make another one. Even if it's based on IP address, hacker news should be full of people that know how to get around that. Just sayin' - if you've got something smart, constructive to say, say it. Who cares about banning if it's what you…

It's not about the difficulty of making a replacement account. It's about the loss of profile / reputation / recognition. The longer a user has been contributing, the more painful losing all of that becomes.

I guess I never saw it that way. Personally, I don't really care for reputation / reputation. Case in point, I've been on HN for almost 2 years, and I only recognize a handful of names: patio11, edw(somenumber), tptacek and pg. Usually, I read comments without even looking at the name, unless the comment is so profound that I have to know who said it This is why those 4 stick in my mind - they have said incredibly insightful things many times - I'm sure that a) they always say what they want and b) they have enough karma to burn anyway (e.g. patio's post about SEO for which he got absolutely blasted).

Re: Trolls (2008)

#246

Post by pg »

zedshaw wrote: post #179

I normally find that, unless an essay is about mathematics, if it is based on a binary argument then it's just false because it's too simplistic to be based in reality. In this case saying there's only "trolls" and "super awesome people!" is childish. There's a much more interesting spectrum of human behavior online that doesn't fit into these convenient categories. To then say there's only two types of "trolls" is a…

For example: I know for a fact that the various people who run HN use it to selectively market what they want

While you are vague here about what you mean by this, you are more precise later in this thread,

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3354698

and what you say there is false. Stories about YC companies don't get any extra points or have a different ranking algorithm. They are also treated the same by anti-abuse code, like the voting ring detector.

If you'd thought more about it, you'd have realized things couldn't be otherwise. I know people will ask me whether there is any sort of bias in the frontpage rankings in favor of stories about YC cos, and I have to be able to say truthfully that there isn't.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#248

Post by philwelch »

interlagos wrote: post #91

I've been hellbanned here on HN on at least three different IP addresses and accounts...that I am aware of. Probably more. In each case nothing I'd ever said would be considered trolling by any rational observer. Here on HN, however, as with most communities where you start to recognize the regulars (tptacek, raganwald, etc), "trolling" is redefined to simply mean "going against the grain". There was one discussion t…

It would be helpful if you provided links to your previous accounts, so we could see for ourselves.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#249

Post by anigbrowl »

interlagos wrote: post #91

I've been hellbanned here on HN on at least three different IP addresses and accounts...that I am aware of. Probably more. In each case nothing I'd ever said would be considered trolling by any rational observer. Here on HN, however, as with most communities where you start to recognize the regulars (tptacek, raganwald, etc), "trolling" is redefined to simply mean "going against the grain". There was one discussion t…

I find that kind of hard to believe. I don't hack or even work in the computer industry any more, have got into arguments with almost every long-term member at some point or other, and hold distinctly minority positions on a variety of topics (most often about governance). And heaven knows that I can be as snarky or pompous as anyone else when I've had a bad day. Maybe I'm just lucky, but the admins seem pretty hands off to me.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#250

Post by lukeholder »

pg wrote: post #241
zedshaw wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never said ranking algorithm. I said, there's a bunch of links (like job postings and YC company PR posts) that get privileged front page status with their own decay algorithms, yet they aren't flagged as "promoted". They're just mixed in as if it's actually relevant news a bunch of people upvoted to the front page. Or how about all that crap that was on scribd back when nobody knew what scribd was? If you think this…

I said, there's a bunch of links (like job postings and YC company PR posts) that get privileged front page status with their own decay algorithms You are mistaken. Only job postings have their own decay algorithm, and those are visually distinguished from stories by e.g. not having points or comments. All stories have the same decay rate.

Sometime I see articles very high up with no comments which made me think some non-job post were self promoted. but maybe thats a cache lag and the votes refresh quicker than comments?
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