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Dear Chess World

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Re: Dear Chess World

#241

Post by nonethewiser »

root_axis wrote: post #198
peter422 wrote: post #21

For all the people defending Hans, he has admitted to cheating in real, official, prize money online tournaments, and chess.com believes that in his apology he still lied about the extent of his cheating. Maybe Hans did cheat OTB, maybe he didn't, but the tough part about reputation is it is very hard to build and very easy to break. And Hans had proven to the world that he would cheat. I personally don't think Hans…

As an outsider to the chess world, this all seems like a roundabout way of saying "we have no evidence that he cheated, but in lieu of evidence let's go with gut feelings".

That's exactly what this means.

Re: Dear Chess World

#242

Post by krisoft »

jl6 wrote: post #115

It’s a deeply unsatisfactory situation, because on one side we expect evidence for such a serious accusation, and on the other side we know such evidence is all but impossible to gather retrospectively.

I believe the takeaway is exactly that. We are in a situation where we can’t know for certain. We can’t go back in time and learn if there was cheating going on. But we can go forward and increase security so the next time we are more likely to be confident about if cheating happened or not. And that is what Carlsen is asking for.

Re: Dear Chess World

#243

Post by kjerkegor »

Invictus0 wrote: post #147
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone makes a mistake at 16, is it a valid reason to ban a person for life? Ok. If someone kills a person at 16. Should the killer be in prison for life?

Enough with the fiction that cheating is a mistake, or that a 16 year old smart enough to be a chess grandmaster is simultaneously so underdeveloped that they have not learned the consequences of cheating. Your comparison with murder is ridiculous. First of all, teenage murderers are regularly sentenced to life in prison. A murderer is deprived of fundamental human liberties--Niemann is deprived of being able to comp…

> First of all, teenage murderers are regularly sentenced to life in prison

Maybe in USA. In Europe some countries even have special sentences for young adults (older than 18 less than 21). Here's for Germany:

"The maximum penalty for any crime committed by a person under 18 (or a young adult under 21 who is treated as a juvenile) is 10 years"

Re: Dear Chess World

#244

Post by MichaelCollins »

InitialLastName wrote: post #149
Maursault wrote: post #128

Carlson should just challenge Niemann to a 30 game over the board televised match in their shorts (no shoes, no shirt) at Madison Square Garden. With the revenue generated from ticket sales and advertising, they could both retire and international chess can put this episode behind them.

Everyone in the audience has to be in their shorts, and the players need to be surrounded by one-way mirrors otherwise someone in the audience could use a computer and signal the players.

And then a very noisy motorcycle drives by the stadium during a tense moment and everybody is left wondering, what if...

Re: Dear Chess World

#245

Post by roflyear »

jl6 wrote: post #115

It’s a deeply unsatisfactory situation, because on one side we expect evidence for such a serious accusation, and on the other side we know such evidence is all but impossible to gather retrospectively.

Magnus can't even say he KNOWS he cheated. He only says he SUSPECTS he cheated. That's all he can say.

Re: Dear Chess World

#246

Post by jobs_throwaway »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #103
gizmo wrote: post #46

Why are known cheaters even allowed to participate in top level tournaments? It’s insulting to all the other chess players. Magnus is setting the right example by refusing to play Niemann

If someone makes a mistake at 16, is it a valid reason to ban a person for life? Ok. If someone kills a person at 16. Should the killer be in prison for life?

playing competitive Chess is a privilege, not a right like freedom. I'm totally fine with 0-tolerance, because the only penalty is you can't play in competitions. If you want to play chess with your mates, no one is going to stop you.

Re: Dear Chess World

#247

Post by roflyear »

frumper wrote: post #169
neaden wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but the claim he made is at 16 he cheated only in no-stakes games, not for prize money.

You realize you're putting your trust in the word of someone admitting they cheated. It only goes downhill from there.

No, just trying to put into perspective that people are morons and witch hunts are not fun for anyone. He's just a kid, he made a mistake.

Re: Dear Chess World

#248

Post by jobs_throwaway »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #212
Invictus0 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enough with the fiction that cheating is a mistake, or that a 16 year old smart enough to be a chess grandmaster is simultaneously so underdeveloped that they have not learned the consequences of cheating. Your comparison with murder is ridiculous. First of all, teenage murderers are regularly sentenced to life in prison. A murderer is deprived of fundamental human liberties--Niemann is deprived of being able to comp…

He cheated online on a second rate chess site. Nobody has any explanations how he could do it over the board. (Considering that people become more or less aware about their responsibilities and consequences of their actions at about 15 yo, he is now 4 times the responsible age he was at 16.)

> Nobody has any explanations how he could do it over the board.

If you believe this, its because you aren't looking. There's tons of explanations online of how it could be possible. Go look at /r/chess.

Re: Dear Chess World

#249

Post by loxs »

l33tman wrote: post #200
loxs wrote: post #86

Isn't it time to just abandon chess as a competitive sport? It's (mostly) a solved game for f* sake, move on. I will probably be downvoted to oblivion, but I'm absolutely serious and would love constructive commentary. What's the big appeal of chess? We (as humans) can't beat computers. It's probably useful for further research, but I see absolutely no value in (human) competitions.

Well very many people think it's fun to watch sports or other competitions regardless of if a robot could do it better. I don't think anybody cares about if its "solved" or not, it's just fun to see humans interact in a controlled dramatic way I guess. Chess also has the added bonus of providing a lot of interesting puzzles for those interested, they can sit and analyze lines with engines after the games as well or w…

I'd love to watch robot football (the European variety) where robots beat humans. If they can do that, it's probably singularity time (or robot apocalypse).

I agree that puzzles are fun, but cheating will be a problem for the competitive part. And I think it will degrade the appeal to watch/follow.

Re: Dear Chess World

#250

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #160
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone makes a mistake at 16, is it a valid reason to ban a person for life? Ok. If someone kills a person at 16. Should the killer be in prison for life?

> If someone kills a person at 16. Should the killer be in prison for life? If you murder somebody at 16, you shouldn't be a free man at 19. Three years is not enough time for somebody to mature and mellow.

People really start to mature and become aware of their responsibilities and consequences for their actions at 15. So 16 years old person has only about 1 year of adult life experience vs 4 years at 19.
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