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Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

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241–250 of 449 posts

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#241
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most EU countries don't use juries, or only use them for the worst crimes(rape/murder) and only in very narrow set of circumstances. "and have better outcomes?" Honesly I have no idea how you'd define what is a "better" outcome.

> Honesly I have no idea how you'd define what is a "better" outcome. I think less blatant racism or classism in the verdicts would be better. In the US there's no shortage of examples of poor people of colour getting far more severe punishments for crimes for which rich white people get minor punishment or barely a slap on the wrist.

Europe is also super racist, they just don't have sizable black populations.

Anecdotally, I have witnessed Europeans saying much more casually racist things than coastal Americans.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think jury nullification is a potential problem just wait until you hear that district attorneys have almost absolute authority to decide what crimes are punished. One person can unilaterally dictate that petty theft is no longer a crime, for example. In that lens I don’t believe jury nullification is much of a problem.

One person, who is typically elected. And that's if federal authorities decide to not get involved.

If the whole community believes X is not a crime and willing to nullify the law as juries, certainly they will elect a prosecutor who thinks the same.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#243
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely this defeats the whole point of jury nullification? Yo should have said yes and then voted your conscience no?

Is it perjury to lie in this case?

I don't understand what the big deal about perjury is. You have politicians lying under oath all the time and having 0 punishments despite the huge ramifications of those lies. Why should the "small time" liars be punished.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#244
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter, judges have no obligatons to be just or fair. They just have to interpret the written law and precedent law as well as legislate themselves by way of precedent. Justice means to correct wrong and make it right. The law is written such that judges can apply their interpretation of it with no obligation towards reason or implied rights and wrongs by the legislature. Take asset forfeiture for example, th…

> Doesn't matter, judges have no obligatons to be just or fair. Yeah, they are. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/453 > The legislature can't even stop companies from being treated as persons which any sane person will tell you is unreasonable or illogical. I've never gotten why people are so opposed to the idea of corporations being treated as unnatural persons for certain purposes. Companies are owned and…

For the first part, that is an oath, may I ask if any judge has ever been prosecuted for being just and this breaking the law? Which law?

For the second, it is not a question of opposition. It is not reasonable or logical no matter the mental gymnasics and legal bullshit you legalists try to apply to it (you are so deep in legality you have forgotten reason). There is no such thing as an unnatural person. A corporation is an entity with specific defintions. The reason behind this mental gymnastics is precisely what you noted: rights. But if you follow logic and reason companies have absolutley no rights whatsoever, only obligations and privileges that allow them to participate in commerce. However, stipulatig that somehow they are partially persons because people operate them and they derive those people's rights allows them to argue against their obligations because of inerited rights. This is what I meant by a veil of theatrics to acheive your underlying goal.

Under a government of the people,for the people and by the people, the people's understand of what could reasonably be considered a person trumps every other argument. A reasonable person would not consider walmart or cpac a person or to have rights of a person because people operate it. Companies were around long before the USA was a country and this stipulation was never made before because it is hilariously illogical.

If you want corporations to have specific privileges, legislate that as such, meaning unlike rights they are not irrevocable by the government and contingent on the fulfillment of their obligations.

Take a billboard paid for by a company for example, the company has no rights to free speech. However the individuals that run it can run the billboard as individuals on behalf of the company, accepting responsibility as individuals under law (typically the CEO would).

> Why should it be any different if you happened to have purchased that house through a corporation?

It is different because you chose to make it different and relinquished any rights of ownership as an individual. You now should pay corporate taxes and nullification of your incorporation means the government gets your house. If you don't like that, buy it as a person. Thank you for bringing this up, do you know about the home ownership, housing price and homeless catastrophe that is unflolding? This is the cause. Corporations are buying houses left and right and taking advantage of home owner rights to do so. A city should be able to ban corporate owned housing but since they are persons that is impossible unless done at the federal level and even then it must pass a supreme court challenge. As a result corporations enjoy personhood rights more than most americans.

When you forgot reason, you tolerated corruption at the foundation of the whole system.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making everything illegal and then selectively enforcing it means that there is no Rule of Law.

There is no alternative to selective enforcement, nor has there ever been.

How about we start with not making stuff illegal that we don't want to enforce?

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#246
post #116
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much hope most of us here think that lynchings for having the wrong colour of one’s skin is wrong, while history has showed that there are communities that don’t consider them crimes. There are good reasons why we try to minimise how much of law enforcement that are left to peoples discretion.

> There are good reasons why we try to minimise how much of law enforcement that are left to peoples discretion. I don't know where you're getting this from. Practically all of law enforcement is left to people's discretion. The people exercising the discretion just aren't members of juries in most cases.

No, they are police, prosecutors and judges. And that is one of the problems with the US system of justice. Justice is supposed to be blind. As it works now, the white upper class kid gets a slap on the wrist after raping an unconscious woman, while the black kids go to prison for minor possession. And since the people in charge don’t have worry about the laws being applied to them, they introduce outrageous laws. The governor never has to worry about his daughter going to prison when she needs an abortion.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe jury duty is an awful way to decide justice and it shouldn't exist. Other countries manage without it just fine. In my opinion it's your civic duty to get out of it and not support it.

I believe that you likely came to the conclusion that most suited what you wanted to do.

What does that mean? I'm not exactly aiming to be tried in court any time soon.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#248
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But laws can be unjust. I think the quote is simply accurate.

My point is, it isn't. Laws don't enforce themselves. It's always people enforcing them - or not. That is, however reluctantly, acknowledged when it's jury nullification. But judges get to stretch and squeeze laws all the time, all the way from nullification to the most unhinged overreach. And unlike juries, they get to pretend they didn't. And in an SC judge's case, it takes a constitutional crisis to overrule them.…

Some people would say that when a judge has to "stretch and squeeze" a law it's a failing of the lawmaking process.

And if elected lawmakers produce a clear and unambiguous law with a manifestly unjust outcome, to get that fixed society should turn to lawmakers rather than judges.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#249
post #122
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How it actually works (based on serving in jury selection pools): Lawyer: Are members of your profession stereotypically capable of independent critical thought? Juror: Yes? Lawyer: Dismissed. (They just ask for professions and maybe educational background then infer the rest.)

Not my experience at all. And remember, what's good for the prosecutor, is bad for the defense, and vice versa. And each side gets only a handful of dismissals. You waste it on some guy you think is "too smart" and you might not be able to use it on that guy who thinks your client is guilty already.

I think pretty trivially whats good for the prosecutor is not necessarily bad for the defense. i.e. if somebody says they're going to flip a coin to make their decision is going to be bad for both of them. (unless one side thinks they have absolutely no chance).

Not a lawyer but I think you have unlimited dismissals [1] its just there's a limit to the number of ones you don't have to provide a reason for. And I'm also sure the rules vary state by state.

[1]: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resource...

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#250
post #230
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s the argument advocates of direct democracy generally support, but no actual democratic systems fully implement direct democracy. To be fair, Switzerland comes very close. The public can pass initiatives or constitutional amendments without government intervention through public votes, and the few Swiss people I know consider this to be the primary political system in Switzerland (not the representative elect…

>especially with broken voting systems that are not even remotely representative such as in the US, UK, and most of the world. There are many flavours of representative democracy. It depend what is being represented. In the British system that’s constituencies. In proportional systems, that’s political parties. Neither are particularly more or less inherently legitimate IMHO. Ultimately whether a democracy and its sy…

> There are many flavours of representative democracy. It depend what is being represented. In the British system that’s constituencies. In proportional systems, that’s political parties. Neither are particularly more or less inherently legitimate IMHO.

I would consider 10% of a country voting for a party as first preference but less than 0.7% of parliament seats (by which I mean a single seat) being allocated to them (as was the case in Australia until the last election where it's still around 2% representation) to be unrepresentative by any reasonable definition of the word. Whether you feel that the voting system in your country needs to be purely representative in order to be legitimate is a philosophical question and whether you feel that an unrepresentative system is legitimate is a separate discussion.

Whether you think parties should be entrenched or not (I'm not particularly fond of the idea), it is literally not representing the public votes. This is because Australia has winner-takes-all electorates and. You can have electorate systems that don't have one-seat electorates. Winner-takes-all electorates lead to this problem.

> I think would clearly ludicrous to argue that the British people do not consent to their system of government.

I would think it to be naive to argue that every election is a referendum on the fundamental system of government in the country where no party is running on such a platform and there are many factors making it essentially untenable to even attempt to have a third party push the issue.

I suspect few British people would say their government is illegitimate but I also suspect very few would say "I have a continuing and active choice in the fundamental way political power is structured in my country, above voting for individual political parties."

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