Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#241

Post by rednerrus » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

unity1001 wrote: post #194

ericmay wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, an alternative interpretation would be that Apple (like much of the world) is in a no-win situation because an assumption that they had (like much of the world) was that investment, fair trade, and bringing China into the established international organizations would result in liberalization (within reason) of China and that they'd be a full partner in global stability. The grand bargain. But instead the CCP re…

"Liberalization" in trade was always a farce. The US itself always had applied tariffs and importation quotas to even its closest trade partners and allies. "Free trade" is a PR speak that is used when pressuring other governments to open up their economy. Not your own.

The US government shoulders an inordinate amount of the cost for global trade. It seems fair that we ask countries to open their markets to us.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#242

Post by krainboltgreene » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #165

BudaDude wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, China was ready to start WWIII a few days ago.

I don’t think it would be ww3 as China would get roflstomped by US and Japan. They might take Taiwan though and ruin the global economy for a few decades. But I’m not seeing how this gets to be ww3 and not a regional war of just blowing shit up with missles. I don’t think Europe, Africa or South America would get involved unless China fired icbms or bobbed Hawaii or something. China’s military just isn’t strong enoug…

> I don’t think it would be ww3 as China would get roflstomped by US and Japan.

Yes, a country with nukes would get "rolfstomped". I expect this opinion from a hacker news commentator.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#243

Post by cma » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

dodobirdlord wrote: post #182

cma wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US heavily supported Taiwan before they were a democracy (first free elections in 1995; before that they were a military dictatorship). Our support seems to be geostrategic and for capitalism (or in other cases for access to natural resources), with democracy being ancillary. Saudi Arabia is one of our biggest allies. If Taiwan didn't have anything to offer they'd have to rely on Brad Pitt or something instead of…

The US values many things in its foreign policy, and some of those things are spreading democracy and self-determination. That doesn’t mean the US values them to the exclusion of other interests like trade partnerships, energy security, regional stability, and military alliances. Countries in the US sphere of influence tend to drift toward becoming democracies, in part because of the influence of free trade. Both Tai…

> The US values many things in its foreign policy, and some of those things are spreading democracy and self-determination.

I think they are valued, but ancillary.

> As for Tibet, if it were on an island and could have been defended by the US Navy, I’m sure it would still be independent.

I think at that point Tibet would be geostrategic. If they were in Antarctica and our Navy could defend we may be considerably less likely to unless there was oil exploration going on or it was an important position for an airbase.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#244

Post by bigcat12345678 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #230

bigcat12345678 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should ask reputable international law experts for these. Fox news might not be reliable on this matter. Nor myself, or any other unidentified HN visitor.

Flippant replies to everyone attempting to meaningfully engage you are not productive and contribute negatively.

Unfortunately, that's the best I could give to you. Not really intentionally trying to dodge the question. My comments are based on number casual exposure from my personally reputable sources which I don't have time and energy to sort out, as I am not a full time intentional law practitioner.

The best my comments can give is for someone who is genuinely interested in learning history to spend time to look for reputable sources.

HN for things outside of tech industry generally offers sharply lower quality. So you generally should not treat anyone here including myself too seriously.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#245

Post by wongarsu » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

allendoerfer wrote: post #197

zozbot234 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people just want Taiwan free from the CCP. The whole point of Taiwan's stance is that "Are the people of Taipei/Taiwan broadly Chinese, as a matter of culture and national history?" and "Should Taiwan be free from the CCP?" can in fact be separate questions. To many Taiwanese, support for "Taiwan independence" would be tantamount to denying their history and self-experienced identity. A very real sort of oppre…

> To many Taiwanese, support for "Taiwan independence" would be tantamount to denying their history and self-experienced identity. A very real sort of oppression. Source? I have Taiwanese sources stating the exact opposite. The Taiwanese youth does not want to be seen as Chinese.

After WWII, Germany lost a large section of their Eastern Territory to Poland, and everyone from there was resettled within the new German borders. Those people were furious, and as a result German policy was to demand that territory back, and a refusal to recognize the new borders. A couple decades later a lot of the people who grew up there had died of old age, and the new generation had no relation to the old territory. As a result public sentiment changed, and Germany publicly recognized the new borders when it was politically advantageous.

Taiwan is probably going through the same process, just a bit slower since it's not just about territory but about national identity. Each generation weakens the ties to the old "Chinese" identity and strengthens a "Taiwanese" identity, until a tipping point is reached.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#246

Post by Apocryphon » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #238

This is unsurprising. The reality is that the US, China and even much of Taiwan actually or effectively supports the One CHina policy. It would be suicide for China to invade Taiwan. The economic damage this would do to China is immense. China may well collapse. Aside from that, it's not that easy either. China may well have a much larger military but a sea crossing is no easy feat. Look at Britain. It hasn't been su…

The PRC could blockade Taiwan rather than engaging in the enormous task of outright invasion, but you're right, the resulting economic fallout would be immense blowback to them. China's government throughout all this, regardless of Xi's rhetoric, has been engaging in slow and steady, non-disruptive actions. Saber-rattling with military exercises is one thing (there have been multiple Taiwan Strait crises already in past decades), engaging in open war would be hugely disruptive both to the international order and to the international trade that the PRC has built its rise upon.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#247

Post by ArnoVW » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

NhanH wrote: post #143

Officially, Taiwan agree to the “One China” stance. They even agree in the 1992 consensus that RoC and PRC does not agree who is the legitimate government of both mainland China and Taiwan islands, but the One China stance itself is not something in dispute. The constitution of Taiwan claims sovereignty over mainland China, although they added an amendment to differentiate “free area” citizens (Taiwanese) and citizen…

Amazing sum up, thanks. Just though, I'd say that neither is a secessionist (both want 'one china'). And technically the PRC is a bunch of rebels that are illegally preventing the Taiwan govt from exercising their democratic mandate.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#248

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #162

jjoonathan wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you learn nothing from the Prisoner's Dilemma? We don't actually have any options that leverage massive economies of scale and manufacture in the US, because our masters chose to ship the manufacturing overseas. Individual agency is trumped by control of the rules, that's the whole point of PD. Pretending that our wallets have agency is a con to fool us out of using the tool that would actually be effective: regu…

You can enact regulation (which takes time, and which I support) and also buy things that aren't made in China right now. This same thing applies to environmental considerations as well. You don't need to wait for the government to ban plastic bags for you to stop using them. Both can happen together.

[deleted]

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#249

Post by 2Gkashmiri » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #145

judge2020 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the situation for the rest of the chip industry besides Intel, who also uses Taiwan TSMC fabs for some of their side operations (see Arc GPUs). Not just computer chips either, 37% of U.S. clothing imports are from China[0], for example. 0: https://www.just-style.com/analysis/analysis-china-market-sh...

So... we're in agreement that over-reliance on China is a bad thing, then?

At the same moment, the rest of the works is realizing the fact that us pretty much dictates what happens around the world.

Want to build your own x86 Chios? Guess what? You can't because Intel/and won't let you and even if they did , if it were one of the "not our allies list" people, the govt will step in. Same for Netherlands fab machine makers. They dictate who can they sell to or not..

That is why nations are investing in stuff like risc-v.

Tomorrow MasterCard/visa can be "ordered by govt " to pull out of a country and suddenly their card economy collapses. Unless they have an alternative, like India does with rupay or UPI which is being exported to other countries as a technology they can locally implement.

Same for stuff like aws or Google or github or basically the entire american internet giants.

You know if tomorrow whatsapp is ordered to stop service in say India what will happen? Without a local alternative already in place, WhatsApp and ipso facto us govt can literally hold that country for ransom. Whatsapp is a silly example but think about it.

Sure China is bad for labour but its not like Americans aren't fighting anszon for Union rights or for $15/hour pay and benefits? I'm not trying to say they are equal, just that its a spectrum.

For non Americans and non Chinese, Be it India or Russia or Iran, these two nations are just as offensive in different manners and it's just a matter of perspective

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#250

Post by nicce » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

FirstLvR wrote: post #122

I HATE the fact technology has to be influenced so much by politics. The only reason we are not travel the stars by now is our own fault.

U.S. made nuclear submarines are really interesting from that point of view. We had technology in 1960s to make reactors which need to be refilled once per 15-20 years without significant incidents. But because of the fear of misuse and technological theft, we have energy crisis.