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Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#241

In a software engineer. My cousin is an electrical engineer working at a large power distribution firm. For all intents and purposes his job is absolutely critical to society. I basically fumble around and do a few projects for my clients. I get paid several times more than him. I am happy for myself but it makes no sense to me how society is mispricing our work.

Mechanical engineers are similarly low-paid. Some time back I hired a few MechE's (with advanced degrees) to write simulation code for a startup. I paid them what I thought was fair for a Bay Area coding role, which turned out to be a significant amount more than the same job would have paid if they had a different title (they would have been doing substantially the same work at Honda/John Deere/Ford/Boeing/Lockheed/…

> I paid them what I thought was fair for a Bay Area coding role

The 'fair' pay in the Bay area is sustained/inflated by the vast amounts of VC money with a _huge_ appetite for risk. I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but it is absolutely unique, you just don't have those finance conditions anywhere else in the world, bar maybe New York.

Also all the quoted companies in your comment will have physical goods with way way smaller profit margins compared to most Bay area products.

My point is that it is not strange at all if you follow the money.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really get this mentality. I love coding and want to share the things I love about it with other people. If I knew someone out there was teaching a freshman-level class and deliberately leaving a bad impression or scaring people off, I’d be pretty annoyed. I only took one programming class in college, which was designed as a weed-out class and it did succeed in weeding me out. Luckily I continued teaching mys…

I don't get the mentality that people think they're entitled to be coddled. By all means, if you disapprove of the way a university does things, don't enroll. You can be an engineer without college. You're free to start your own university, if your teaching is truly better and more rewarding to your students the free market will make you a rich man. Personally I'm glad there are places where academic rigor doesn't be…

> By all means, if you disapprove of the way a university does things, don't enroll.

By the time you find out, it is too late. See also "The Market for Lemons".

> You can be an engineer without college.

Electrical engineer is AFAICT a protected term in some places and not others, so you legally can't do that everywhere.

> You're free to start your own university,

University is a protected term in many places, so again, you can't "freely" do that. This is to protect against the information asymmetry that the potential students have, precisely because of the aforementioned lemon market issues if they don't, and even then it's not perfect.

> if your teaching is truly better and more rewarding to your students the free market will make you a rich man.

Except the potential students don't have any way to determine that until at a minimum of 15 years after you start, even if they're unusually highly informed and highly motivated. And university tuition fees in many places are fixed, so you don't get more reward than any other teacher.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#243
post #123

EE spent so many years making sure everyone knew it's impossibly hard, the professors eat their young, etc. I've seen this in other professions where the incumbents desperately want to impose, in actuality, the uphill-both-ways life story they believe they endured. And then they are shocked when the young peace out. The military, and their insanely rigorous special warfare training. The medical profession in general.…

This is true. I went to school for EE, but was interested in Computer Science. There was a stigma to switching from EE to CS as taking an easier course because you couldn't hack it in EE. It was seen as a failure or a defeat. I toughed it out and graduated with an electrical engineering degree, but now I'm a programmer anyway. Wish I had just switched once I realized I liked CS more and saved a bunch of time.

I did a mechanical engineering degree and ended up programming (way better pay) which I already could do before uni. I don't regret it though - it's much much easier to learn programming on your own than other kinds of engineering.

E.g. if you got a job doing low level programming, like firmware development or even chip design (basically still programming) your EE knowledge would be very helpful.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#244

The tools for EEs are old, creaky, text-based stuff from the DOS days. Time to finally turn EE into a software discipline. Then some decent tools will be developed and normal folk will be willing to design stuff.

> The tools for EEs are old, creaky, text-based stuff from the DOS days. Care to name a couple? Because that doesn't sound right at all.

The GUIs I have the misfortune of using on a regular basis are VCS and Design Compiler. They are laggy and stuffed full of weird bugs.

However, 99% of the time I'm using the text interface instead since I can type faster/easier than I can move a mouse accurately around, and I'm mostly running scripts anyway. The tools mostly produce textual output so it seems natural to give them textual input. So while they do suck, it's because they are not seen as worth investing in, and the vendors are probably right about that. Some new hires do miss the shiny interface at first but then they go on to get stuff done. Plenty wrong with EE tooling but text-based isn't one of them.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stuff about needing to know a lot more physics or arcane domain specific stuff isn't so true. If you talk to someone who's got pink sunglasses about SWE, they'll say a bunch of stuff in our industry is "arcane domain specific knowledge" to them. You're probably romanticising it too because it's a hoby of yours, which just leads to skwes in your perception. Source: studied EE, after realising I wouldn't like my ca…

I haven't seen any arcane domain specific knowledge that was in the software part, sure a your business can be infinitely arcane but the software was always very straightforward. EE is in a different ballpark, imagine if you had to explicitly pay attention to write software that didn't melt your CPU.

That's still just domain knowledge, though... It's arcane to you, not them

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#246

EE spent so many years making sure everyone knew it's impossibly hard, the professors eat their young, etc. I've seen this in other professions where the incumbents desperately want to impose, in actuality, the uphill-both-ways life story they believe they endured. And then they are shocked when the young peace out. The military, and their insanely rigorous special warfare training. The medical profession in general.…

In my opinion, the issue is that all of the EE work went to China. It's very difficult to find a company in the west where you could go to do an engineering apprenticeship and learn how to build cool stuff, because all of them outsourced their "building cool stuff" operations years ago. And designing things when you cannot try out your design (or when you need to wait 2 weeks for a parcel from China for each attempt) is really difficult and demotivating.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit margin. It's all profit margin. Software is reliably >25%, where physical manufacturing is in the single digits.

But the question is why? Shouldn’t there be the same race to single digit margins in software as well?

In a free market, there is such race in every industry. It's just that demand for software is growing too damn fast and supply can't keep up.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#248
I find it very funny that this article came out right after the deadline for university applications passed here (Greece).

Anyway, I chose a CS Bachelor’s program with just enough EE classes to qualify for a MEng in EE later. I was thinking about starting from EE (I’m equally interested in both subjects, if not a bit more in EE) but I was discouraged by comparing salary info and seeing many dissatisfied electrical engineers. If things look better in 4 years I’ll do my Master’s in EE.

I would prefer if I could do both degrees at the same time, even if it meant more coursework and slightly longer time to complete. I can do a version of this with the degree I chose, studying n subjects in CS and n subjects in EE instead of 2n in only one of these, but ideally it should be 2n in both.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#249
This is some manager at Intel complaining. This is Intel office space, shown on Conan O'Brien.[1] It's been a while since I was inside an Intel building, but that's exactly what it looked like. Multi-story buildings built from the ground up with acre-sized grey cube farms. And they wonder that they have a hiring problem.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXReifFHXbY

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#250
I will just add to the chorus here:

* I graduated as a Computer Engineer.

* Worked as EE/EEE entire career (currently almost 14 years).

* Half of my class of EEs and CEs went into other careers immediately after graduation because money was better.

* 10 years later my best conservative estimate (based on sampling from friends from my year) is that at least another quarter has left because money.

* I have mainly worked in companies that make embedded devices, which is a market that is supposed to be exploding. So I should be getting paid better right? Have always been paid worse than my SE peers even though there's x5 - x10 as many of them.

* Know lots of SEs who moved from EE because money was better (chief complaint from them is that SE is easier but they don't care because job less stressful and again more money).

* Have never met an SE moving into EE.

* I am now at a junction point in my career where I will either: Leave EE completely and work in something else (probably SE or IT), start my own EE business, consult in compliance of EE products (had one gig for a while and it paid well). Why? because money.

And I don't want fast cars or huge houses or any of that absurdity (although A house would be nice). Just living comfortably would be nice. Having the salaries of my SE and CS friends would be amazing.

To those commenters who say that you need to be bright to be an EE, it is very flattering, but I am obviously not very bright :D

(edit: formatting because, again, not very bright :) )

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