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Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

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Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" is horseshit. If the action is inhuman, I will hate you for it. Maybe those excuses help you sleep at night but if we want to pretend we aren't just especially smart monkeys then we should act like it

Not offering subsidized healthcare is inhuman? What quality of life at work is inhuman? I think it is inhuman to not offer a woman 1 year of parental leave to breastfeed and raise her baby. Should I simply not attempt to operate a business in the US, because this benefit would make my payroll costs so high in my line of business, that my customers would opt to buy from my competitors at a lower price and my business…

Yes, if you want to be humane, don't play the game. I don't know how to make that clearer. You don't get to ignore morality just because you want to make more money. Yes, your would-be competitors are playing the game and being immoral, and we should consider them lesser for it.

Pretending that companies aren't made up of individual people all making constant choices is a very very useful thing for people in companies that want to have their cake and eat it to.

If you sign off on "do bad thing so the company keeps making money" then you should quite literally be ostracized. Your competition only gets to benefit from those horrible things because people like you keep telling us it's a bad thing to expect companies to do better.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not offering subsidized healthcare is inhuman? What quality of life at work is inhuman? I think it is inhuman to not offer a woman 1 year of parental leave to breastfeed and raise her baby. Should I simply not attempt to operate a business in the US, because this benefit would make my payroll costs so high in my line of business, that my customers would opt to buy from my competitors at a lower price and my business…

Yes, if you want to be humane, don't play the game. I don't know how to make that clearer. You don't get to ignore morality just because you want to make more money. Yes, your would-be competitors are playing the game and being immoral, and we should consider them lesser for it. Pretending that companies aren't made up of individual people all making constant choices is a very very useful thing for people in companie…

In the meantime, who is putting food on the table for their kids?

People’s choices are to either start a well funded business where margins are huge and you can offer plush benefits, work for a business offering high compensation, work for the government, or do nothing at all?

Immigrants should not try their hand at restaurants or gas stations or convenient stores, tradespeople should not attempt hiring apprentices unless they can give the same compensation as big firms, etc?

> Your competition only gets to benefit from those horrible things because people like you keep telling us it's a bad thing to expect companies to do better.

I have spent many words explaining that this is wrong. The competition gets to benefit because customers will buy from the seller selling at the lowest price. It has nothing to do with people like me or their comments.

Higher paid US manufacturing did not disappear because of people like me. It disappeared because customers wanted to save money and buy cheaper goods made in countries with lower manufacturing costs.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also can't understand why we need parades that share what other people do in their bedrooms. This cuts both ways.

>I also can't understand why we need parades that share what other people do in their bedrooms Probably a reaction 'what they do in the bedroom' being made literally illegal for a long period of time. I can imagine wanting to throw a parade to show the 'good people of society' that you're just as human as they are, with the expected goal being to ward off further persecution in the future.

>Probably a reaction 'what they do in the bedroom' being made literally illegal for a long period of time.

This can be used to justify anything. Muslims and Jews used to be persecuted in catholic spain for a very long time since the 1400s, should muslims make periodic month-long parades where they play the quran loudly and cosplay as 14th century muslim warriors ? should Spain be forced to host them ?

"I was harmed in the past" is suspiciously similar to what a lot of abusers and opportunistic psychopaths say to justify their actions and get their way.

>with the expected goal being to ward off further persecution in the future.

How does that work ? Some people despise your existence, so you... shove your existence in their faces and in their streets even more ? To what end ? own them ? stick your tongue out ? rub your legal or social victory in their face ? This is just plain revenge, you can just call it "owning the haters", no need to add any kind of moral decorations on top that isn't there.

This would make you more honest, and also open your eyes to some effects you're not currently seeing with the overly moralistic framework, such as that the "owning" might be overly broad and end up making people who previously had no problem with the group in question gradually resent it more and more as it intrude further into their life year after year.

Regardless of its purpose or morality, is this strategy even successful ? was it used in the past by any minority that successfully evaded the majority's wrath because of it ? if anything, majorities hate proud minorities even more. Is there any coherent defense of it that lays out how exactly is obnoxiously marching in the streets supposed to make people accept you more than they currently do ?

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also can't understand why we need parades that share what other people do in their bedrooms. This cuts both ways.

I wouldn't describe Pride as "[sharing] what other people do in their bedrooms" but rather sharing that there are people different than the majority/perceived default. It's about bringing awareness to and normalizing acceptance of differences.

>but rather sharing that there are people different than the majority/perceived default

In other words, sharing what they do in their bedrooms.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#245
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothetically, what if you believe that this closed bedroom behavior is disordered and unhealthy, and that celebrating it, while admittedly well-intentioned, is not helpful, good or the best way to love or respect these people? Despite that attitude being the norm for much of human history, to advocate such a position now is literally modern heresy, and the end to your career and any public life. Diversity of opinio…

> Hypothetically, what if you believe that this closed bedroom behavior is disordered and unhealthy, and that celebrating it, while admittedly well-intentioned, is not helpful, good or the best way to love or respect these people? You are saying that the Arab countries do this because they want to love or respect these people? Maybe not stoning them to death might be more helpful. Just saying. > Diversity of opinion…

>You are saying that the Arab countries do this because they want to love or respect these people?

Obviously bad faith, GP never mentioned the arab countries, they were talking about how western countries screaming about "bowing down" is hypocrisy, since they themselves do an aweful lot of making people, most of the time their own citizens, bow down when they could leave them alone. So if your house is made of glass, keep away from the stones. UAE is threatening a corporation to enforce an ideology, that is aweful, Oh gee, I wonder what that style reminds me of.

Preach only what you would do for others if the positions were reversed. Do not ask what you don't give.

>I don't think this is the difficult stuff at all.

I also think all my opinions are extremly based and uncontroversial in the slightest, all my enemies are just dumb and evil, they are making it up, they are not genuinely disagreeing.

Come on. This is the oldest trick in the book.

What good is free speeach if you're just going to relegate it to 'the difficult stuff', defined as whatever you say is the difficult stuff ? This is just like how authoritarian regimes say they are not impriosning 'genuine opposition', just the bad people who pretend to be dissidents but actually want to destabilize the country. But, mystery of mysteries, there never seems to be any 'genuine opposition' who are not harrased and imprisoned, it always turns out that all oppositions in those countries are of the bad kind. Almost as if selectiely defining exceptions to free speech is some tool authoritarians use to silence people without giving up the moral high ground.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also can't understand why we need parades that share what other people do in their bedrooms. This cuts both ways.

There is so much privilege in this statement. I can only assume that no part of your gender/sexuality/race/religion/etc has ever been illegal or called an abomination or that you aren't a "real" person with rights. These parades are about being seen, about demanding basic human rights. A little empathy on your part could go a long way. Also, why do we need parades for Thanksgiving or Christmas. People just want to ce…

No post body was provided.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I expect Amazon to stand up against their demands and tell them to go pound sand. Im not naive; I know they won’t. But I can still be disgusted that they won’t.

We peacefully disagree then. I don't expect a company that treats their warehouse workers like s*t to all of a sudden find a moral cause and stand on it, especially when that company has continually shown that it cares about money above all.

We disagree... about what I expect?

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#248
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're implying LGBT are fundamentalist that corporations bowed to too.

A mob of LGBT allies will make your life a living hell if you don't pledge total fealty, so yes, they are fundamentalists and zealots of their own little religion.

It seems unreasonable to essentially accuse the group "gay and trans people" of being a religion of fundamentalist zealots who demand total fealty.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#249
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who bring the "genocide" argument to the discussion are like people who bring pepper spray to a party: they are not interested in a discussion (the others are not interested in a party). Skipping that, Amazon is not taking part in any genocide - they agreed to "restrict LGBT search results" in accordance with the local laws (however backward these may seem to you — and me). In the US, Amazon is not selling Mei…

There are huge differences between Amazon not selling porn due to local laws and Amazon restricting LGBTQ searches due to local laws. Just because there is precedent doesn’t suddenly mean it’s a good thing to do. People in this thread think I’m surprised by this news, or they try to explain why we should expect this from Amazon. I don’t care about any of that. At the end of the day, someone or some people made the ca…

> There are huge differences between Amazon not selling porn due to local laws and Amazon restricting LGBTQ searches due to local laws.

Except for the fact that you agree with one ('cos it's "a good thing") and disagree with the other ('cos it's "a bad thing"), what are these differences?

> some people made the call to continue making a buck by empowering a homophobic and dangerous group.

For an LGBT person, it's better to be in the US than in the UAE [0][1].

If you want that to change in the short run, you're out of luck — it's not realistic to assume it will change soon.

If you want that to change in the long run, the way to do that is to have more contact (including trade) with the UAE.

[0] Mind you, it's better still to be LGBT in the UAE than in Afghanistan or Iran!

[1] For a sick child from a poor family who needs lots and lots of healthcare, it's the opposite.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A mob of LGBT allies will make your life a living hell if you don't pledge total fealty, so yes, they are fundamentalists and zealots of their own little religion.

It seems unreasonable to essentially accuse the group "gay and trans people" of being a religion of fundamentalist zealots who demand total fealty.

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