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Copilot sells code other people wrote

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Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#241
post #112
post #50

Pretty soon the world is going to come to realize art/creation is just blending, incrementing and repurposing prior art. No book, painting, codebase, sonnet, design is theft-less. The art is the space reduction, otherwise we’d just bruteforce away.

Unless every invention is gonna be AI generated (which is kind of a scary situation), intellectual property still needs to be a thing (otherwise people won't have incentive to invent, it'll just be stolen from them).

It's remarkable how many people still repeat this unsubstantiated cliché.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#242
Sure, the concern is valid but I feel like this tweet adds absolutely no substance to the discussion and just repeats the same opinion that was already rehashed to death since copilot originally launched. As such, especially with the tone that the tweet has, I don't expect constructive discussion to raise here.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#243
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but those humans are humans, not machines. With machines the scale changes dramatically. Which, incidentally is something copyright law has addressed explicitly: if you mechanically transform at best you end up with a derived work.

I don't understand the difference between Co-Pilot on the one hand and Moderna (on the shoulders of medical research) or SpaceX (on the shoulders of physics knowledge and cumulative rocket engineering knowledge) on the other. They all heavily use technology, automation and machines. I don't see where the distinction is coming from, and if there is a technical legal distinction, is it an ethically important one?

The distinction is a legal one: intellectual property can not be re-used without permission of the rights holder, be it a patent or a chunk of source code.

And you can bet that SpaceX using physics knowledge and cumulative rocket engineering knowledge are very careful to either license the tech they use or be very explicit about documenting their own.

That you can't see the difference is entirely on you, going 'against the flow' of society sometimes leads to change but more often it simply results in friction and a lack of comprehension.

Keep in mind that open source is based on copyright law, and without copyright law the protections that open source offers would be gone.

To give an extreme example: if you had a chunk of software that was constructed in such a way that it would spit out a complete copy of 'the Gimp' without the license file if you started to write an image processing program that would be a very clear case of copyright violation.

If you then start breaking the Gimp down into smaller and smaller re-usable fractions at some point you might be able to argue that such a generic and oft used snippet should be free of copyright. But that only works as long as you then don't string together a whole pile of pieces that you each copied somewhere else, the whole idea is that your creation is an original one.

Medical research (which quite often leads to patents, which I don't believe should be possible, especially if that research was publicly funded) and physics knowledge are of a different kind than copyrighted program code. The latter would be better compared to universally present language constructs and constraints, such as 'memory management', 'data manipulation' etc. Once you make those explicit in an implementation copyright applies.

Or, to make another analogy: it's like comparing the skill of writing to the product of that skill. The skill isn't protected, but the output of the act of writing is.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Code plagiarization is not a thing by all practical purposes Of course it is. Plagiarism is “the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.” It’s unethical and it will get you fired at any reputable company.

Ok, then there doesn't exist a single reputable company with a tech division and we're all unethical. Have a nice unethical day.

> Ok, then there doesn't exist a single reputable company with a tech division and we're all unethical. Have a nice unethical day.

I’m deeply disturbed that you think this form of plagiarism is universal — I can assure you that is not the case.

I work at a FANG currently, and plagiarism is absolutely not tolerated.

In fact, plagiarism has been considered a fireable offense at every other company I’ve worked at over my 25 year long career, and prior to that, considered a serious form of academic misconduct in school.

It’s clearly unethical and I’ve never plagiarized in my life.

I’ve only run into one instance of someone else plagiarizing code in my career, and that individual was fired.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#245
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but those humans are humans, not machines. With machines the scale changes dramatically. Which, incidentally is something copyright law has addressed explicitly: if you mechanically transform at best you end up with a derived work.

I don't understand the difference between Co-Pilot on the one hand and Moderna (on the shoulders of medical research) or SpaceX (on the shoulders of physics knowledge and cumulative rocket engineering knowledge) on the other. They all heavily use technology, automation and machines. I don't see where the distinction is coming from, and if there is a technical legal distinction, is it an ethically important one?

> I don't see where the distinction is coming from

Humans use reasoning. Copilot just guesses the likeliest next word.

See the Quake's fast inverse sqrt code incident: https://twitter.com/mitsuhiko/status/1410886329924194309

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#246
post #162
post #86

> Hector Martin: If you use Copilot, you are basically playing Russian Roulette that the random mashup of existing, copyrighted, hegerogenously licensed code that you get out of it qualifies as an original work, mostly by chance. Or that nobody will ever sue you otherwise. Well, that's already the case with Stack Overflow copypasta enterprise code. If anything, use of Copilot would be an improvement...

Do people really copy/paste from StackOverflow? I feel this is more a meme, rather than reality. I do check StackOverflow, but never have I took an answer verbatim. I try to see if it's the same problem and what was the approach in deconstructing it, which I find more useful in the long run.

I've done it, and I know others that have, but I think it depends on people's definitions of copy/paste.

I've certainly copied a sort anonymous function from SO, it was one-liner. Is that copy/paste? or is it only copy/paste if it's X lines?

Otherwise I agree, usually I just get hints and go my own way.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the (ex?) programmers from Valve managed to get it to spit out parts of the Source engine verbatim. He posted a Twitter thread yesterday I believe.

Does that prove it ignores licenses or does that imply the source engine exists verbatim (minus licenses) multiple times on Github?

If it's minus a license then it should be assumed that rights are retained (in the same way you can't just take ownership of an image you find on the internet) so if it were filtering it shouldn't take code from repo's without explicit and favorable licenses. If it is taking code only from repo's with permissive licenses (e.g. MIT) then why aren't they following the attribution requirements?

I don't think you can have your cake and eat it on this one.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#248
post #61

Technically, programmers search, copy and modify code all the time. One might argue copilot puts into software an algorithm that humans are already doing. Software like that is usually inevitable. Still, it sucks there's no benefit for the contributors. The most ethical thing I can think of is some kinda 'Spotify-like' revenue sharing model, based on how often their code is used by others. Not that they'd ever implem…

> Technically, programmers search, copy and modify code all the time. When following the license terms, preserving the original copyright, etc, sure. However, honest, ethical people (including programmers) do not plagiarize. Copying and pasting code without attribution is plagiarism. Doing it without following the licensing terms is a copyright violation.

I don't consider copying a 3 liner from stack overflow and not writing an attribution plagiarizing (regardless if technically speaking it is or isn't according to the law).

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, then there doesn't exist a single reputable company with a tech division and we're all unethical. Have a nice unethical day.

> Ok, then there doesn't exist a single reputable company with a tech division and we're all unethical. Have a nice unethical day. I’m deeply disturbed that you think this form of plagiarism is universal — I can assure you that is not the case. I work at a FANG currently, and plagiarism is absolutely not tolerated. In fact, plagiarism has been considered a fireable offense at every other company I’ve worked at over m…

I'm disturbed you believe regurgitating code snippets is plagiarisation.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#250
post #123

This isn't how a language model works. It's SO frustrating that even on HN people still fall for this naive and incorrect analysis. Pasting bits I've said before on this topic: Language models do not work like this. They can copy content but usually that's for something like the GPL language text. Generally they work on a character by character basis predicting what is the most likely character to appear next. This v…

If this were true, then they would have trained it on all of MS's proprietary source code too.
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