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As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

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Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#241

Post by paviva »

InefficientRed wrote: post #66
sseagull wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leave academia and find a company who will fund your work. This is the weakness in your argument. Not all of science is interesting to the private sector. I worked for a large company once that in the past had large labs for researching charge transfer and other fundamental physics. When I toured those labs, they were all empty, with broken and unused machines. I know this site focuses on computers and tech. But th…

> Not all of science is interesting to the private sector. More helplessness. My research area is famously hard to fund even within academia, so I substantially changed the way that I frame my research and the type of work I was proposing. I still do the most important bits of pushing advances in my field, but there's a lot of auxiliary work that has immediate value as well. It's less fun, it's CERTAINLY more humblin…

I'm very interested about your research area. Can you divulge anything publicly here, or maybe shoot me an email (just put in my profile).

Thanks.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#242

Post by wolverine876 »

apohn wrote: post #173
slurpmaker wrote: post #42

Make it make sense. Offer Postdocs an actual career path not based on broken tenure and disposable adjunct professor roles, with hundreds if not thousands of applicants. Why would someone, with any field of study, be a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role? Moreso, post doc'ing for the wrong professor can ruin your career, why risk that eithe…

>If the pay isn't good, the culture and work should be. In academia, that's almost never true When I think back to my thought process when I was applying for academic and research jobs after my PhD, there's one thing I remember that always keeps me from ever second guessing my decision to move to the private sector. At least in my field, so many people in academia and research had big egos and were a-holes. Some of t…

A professor who had also worked in the private sector told me: In academia, everyone is smart and some of them are nice. In the private sector, everyone is nice and some of them are smart.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#243

Post by lesuorac »

m463 wrote: post #226
mvh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a PhD student in CS in the USA. At my school in Boston, we are paid a ~40K USD/yr stipend. My friends in industry make a _minimum_ of 120k/yr, and some make considerably more than that (think 200k+), in junior / "entry-level" positions. When I complete the PhD, if I go to industry in the USA, my income will probably be similar to that of my friends who will have been in industry the entire time (and gotten steady…

A friend of mine got a phd and he told me the main benefit was that he had lots more opportunities. He was always called back for job interviews and had lots more positions available. His wife, a nurse, basically supported him while he was getting the degree.

This is still an opportunity cost scenario. Would your friend get called back for job interviews if he had just spent that time in industry and had ~3yr experience on their resume (My experience is yes).

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#244

Post by wolverine876 »

LegitShady wrote: post #211
pfortuny wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No: the will to power is greatest because you have (supposedly) power over the creme of the creme. As silly as that but Nietzsche had it right: the will to power is one of the primordial forces.

the creme of the creme are all working for big companies making big dollars. But I could imagine people in academia thinking they are the a big deal.

What is that based on?

AFIAK, the leaders in almost every field are in academia, where they have the independence to do research, not earn profits, and where their research has the greatest impact because their employer doesn't hide it from the world as long as possible.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#245

Post by quantum_magpie »

chrisseaton wrote: post #40
quantum_magpie wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones in control of money and the ones in charge of running their lab and hiring postdocs are not the same people. If you can't hire a postdoc for shitty salary, then that shitty salary can be repurposed for something else. The former won't ever budge for the latter until the whole system collapses. And even then, I dread that they will just leave it in ruins.

> The ones in control of money and the ones in charge of running their lab and hiring postdocs are not the same people. Does this disconnect happen in other spending decisions? For example does the maintenance department ask the administrators for money for new lightbulbs that cost $1 each and the administrators ask them to buy them for 25c instead, even if they aren't available for that price? How can you even decid…

With postdoc salaries the issue is that they are set by the governing bodies. I don't have my contract on hand ( I'm a research associate, but it's similar for postdocs), but it's set as some multiplier of minimum monthly wage.

The maintenance funds part is where it gets even worse actually! As an example when you write a grant proposal, they are usually for 2-3 years. You may want to buy some piece of equipment with those funds, and that's fine. However you can't earmark some if that money for future maintenance of that equipment after the grant period ends. Then, when you apply for the next grant, on most occasions, you can't ask money for maintenance of old equipment. And once it breaks, there's enormous hurdles to overcome to get money for repairs.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#246

Post by photoelectric »

Here's another perspective from a physicist in one of the less popular sub-fields (IE not quantum computing, high energy, etc.).

I am currently coming to the end of my PhD and want to end up in industry later. However, I am going to do a postdoc for at least a year for a few reasons.

Firstly, it is with a scientist that I work well with and is doing work that I believe in. They are a great boss and I take time off when I need it and without guilt. Second, the location is right and in an area I want to live in and eventually find jobs in. Lastly, the postdoc pays like $80k with benefits; less than I could make in ad-tech, etc. However, it is a decent amount to live well in the location. I'm also doing work on problems I choose and without a need to justify them. It's amazing to me that I can earn money doing this type of work at all.

Plus the postdoc is meant to be a job-hunting exercise. I basically am getting paid a salary to do interesting work and shop around for a job and live in the area I want a job in. It's a win-win. Even my most anti-academia friends in my PhD program are considering doing this for similar reasons.

I guess I am posting this because going through PhD I only ever heard complaints come through about the system (a lot of them valid IMHO). However, now that I'm making the decision it seems like I have a lot of great opportunities. Not that my field doesn't have its problems, but I wonder if the severe ones are concentrated elsewhere. I suppose there's hope out there if you're in the right field.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#247

Post by [deleted] »

feet wrote: post #97
coldpie wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like building stuff that people use, not writing papers that mostly went unread. Circa 2010, as I was finishing up my BS in CS, one of my professors asked me to have a meeting in his office. He was trying to recruit me into a graduate program under him, since he liked my performance in his class. I said I wasn't very interested, since I wanted to make things people will actually use. His response was there was a…

I think this is a short sighted perspective. Basic research is important and has farther reaching impacts than a CRUD web app. Just because you don't see immediate impact doesn't mean it isn't there

[deleted]

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#248

Post by borroka »

apohn wrote: post #234
throwawaymaths wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in spite of an excellent CV, with the caveat that I had no affiliations with top schools and was not part of any in-group--I did not know how important both would be for an academic career, I though my many well-cited publications and clear and long-term research plans would have been enough. Even those are not enough. I had all of those (great undergrad and grad school pedigree, postdoc with a novel laureate,…

>You need to have a final boss who will go to bat for you, unfortunately the Nobel laureate was 84 and more into playing slots at the Indian casino/fucking around in the lab than he was in advocating for my career. This is one of the things I like about industry jobs. Your career at a company might grow or be derailed by one person, but it's just that particular company. If it's a big company, it's just that particul…

That's alluring.

It is true that you can change companies and rapidly leave behind all the problems and conflicts and issues you had in your previous jobs.

In academia, first, it is very challenging to move to another institution after you start your tenure track position (few jobs available, students need to be taken care of, it is at least a 2-year move), second if you have "issues" with other people in the field, and especially when they are more powerful than you (better known, better network, better financing), you have a miserable professional life in front of you. I see many an academic living on the verge of psychological collapse.

Freedom has no price, for all the rest there is money in the bank account.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#249

Post by wolverine876 »

gautamdivgi wrote: post #160
slurpmaker wrote: post #42

Make it make sense. Offer Postdocs an actual career path not based on broken tenure and disposable adjunct professor roles, with hundreds if not thousands of applicants. Why would someone, with any field of study, be a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role? Moreso, post doc'ing for the wrong professor can ruin your career, why risk that eithe…

I was an industry person who wanted to transition to academia. I just decided against it obviously. I liked all the aspects you pointed out above. The one thing that is missed is that most places are publishing sweatshops where the pay and work conditions are horrible. The “boss” or the PI has unlimited control and can destroy your career. The problems are also way out of the ordinary. I’d like to draw a parallel wit…

> I just decided against it obviously.

Why is it obvious? There might be some groupthink on HN (and bias toward our career paths), but plenty of people go into academia.

> pay and work conditions are horrible

It's not like bosses and businesses in the private sector are Nirvana. You can see plenty of stories about them on HN.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#250

Post by qayxc »

vt85 wrote: post #137

Welcome to the results of Leftists taking over the Academia. Coming soon to the whole country. And then - civil war, of course. As EVERY time.

Wait, so back in 1861 - the first and last time a civil war erupted in the US - it was due to Leftist taking over academia and then the whole country?

Interesting. Or maybe you are from Europe, where civil war has a long tradition.

But maybe you insist that it was "Leftists" back in 130 BCE in the Roman Empire.

The 8th century Chinese general An Lushan was a Leftist as well? Good to know.

The "Roundheads" in the English parliament back in 1642 were basically commies as well, whereas the royalists "Cavaliers" were the level-headed ones - I mean what's not to love about absolutism, "All hail the King!" and all that.

The Portuguese back in 1832 must have been Leftists as well; I just need to find out which of the royal brothers was the commie.

But yeah, sure. EVERY time with the god damned leftists!

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