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Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

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Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#241

Post by shanusmagnus »

gerdesj wrote: post #226
shanusmagnus wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was super interesting. Any book recs with a similar flavor?

I could try to dig out my college reading list (it was actually Plymouth Polytechnic - that's Plymouth, Devon, UK) but it was 30 odd years ago. Things have moved on a bit but not too much. Do you have a general interest in Civil Engineering or a particular project in mind?

Digging through your stuff would be a bridge too far :) My interest was bc this is a field that I know absolutely nothing about, and so the examples you give were suggestive of an exotic world. If there was something that could sketch out that world in the manner you did, it would be mind-expanding.

I like things that give me a look into a proximate universe that I'd never otherwise pursue, e.g., if I could read a really interesting piece about botany, or modern dance, or challenges in agriculture, or the Michael Jordan of show horses, or the world's most controversial geologist ...

Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#242

Post by CRConrad »

gerdesj wrote: post #116
bluefirebrand wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sure hope that the steel in skyscrapers and stuff is going to last a long freaking time though.

Steel does have a major use in your skyscraper but concrete is perhaps the main player. Conc is a wonderful and bloody complicated material and so is steel. Steel is basically iron+(stuff) - Fe 'n' that. If you add small amounts of carbon to iron you get steel and depending on how you do it you transform iron (brittle, hard etc) to a material that is "tough". Tough generally means that it will resist stress/strain mo…

> You can simply put C section steel plates in your beams or run FeCr rod through and tension the nuts (lol)

"You can't simply...", right? (The "lol" kind of gave it away.)

Too bad, I thought that was about it.

Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#243

Post by CRConrad »

Animats wrote: post #5

This was taken seriously in 1950s US Civil Defense. Since Europe had already been through that process recently, there was a lot of knowledge available. There's a classic set of books, "Build Your Own Metal Working Shop From Scrap", on this. The kid's version: "A Boy and a Battery" (1942).[1] There's also "A Boy and a Motor", on how to build your own electric train set from old metal cans, some wire, a hammer and tin…

And a literary source of inspiration to get into that mindset is Nevil Shute's Trustee from the Toolroom -- "well loved by tool lovers, especially engineers and model engineers, for its reverent treatment of machinery, tools, and craftsmanship", according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee_from_the_Toolroom#Majo...

Sure spoke that way to me, as I read it back when... Uh, when it was about a third as old as it is now.

Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#244

Post by NateEag »

jpindar wrote: post #236
NateEag wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps the Amish would do well. I live in central Pennsylvania, in Lancaster County - there's an Amish farm walking distance from where I sit. I think about societal collapse a lot, and was just recently ruminating on how the Amish would do in that scenario. They're clearly more prepared for it than most of us, but they're a bit more dependent on the outside world (or "the English", as they refer to us) than you m…

You might like the novel "When the English Fall".

Looks interesting. Thanks for the recommendation!

Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#245

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

User23 wrote: post #156
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. There are a lot of gas stations and truck stops last time I checked. Stuff stored in tanks underground tends to be usable for quite a long time.

Pure gasoline is good for about 6 months. E10 is good for about 3 because ethanol is so hydrophilic. Fuel stabilizer can stretch that to a couple years, but gas stations generally don’t use it.

In theory and running high performance motors at rated capability. In the real world I use years-old gasoline all the time in small engines.

Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#246

Post by groby_b »

hutzlibu wrote: post #80
groby_b wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... coal and oil won't be lying around. Which robs you of your major energy source, breaking the "fix and use" plan. Metals are often in refined form, which means in many cases higher melting points. (E.g. pig iron is 1500K, steel is 2800K) We're not even mentioning electronics, because the vast majority of it isn't weather resistant, which means your "left lying around" is gone pretty quickly. Plastic is in many…

"Subsistence farming is back-breaking, never-ending labor" Subsistence farming without machines is back-breaking, never-ending labor. The whole idea is therefore to get machines up and running again as fast as possible. And it all depends on the doomsday scenario. In most cases, there should be enough machines left to scavange. Or after a while, enough animals to be hunted. Potential biggest hurdle are social dynamic…

Beginning sentence: "Coal and oil won't be lying around". The amount of machines you can run is limited, and so is the duration.

Animal hunting is mostly a settler fantasy. There's not a single place in the US that has sufficient animal population to sustain human nutrition for more than a couple hundred people. You will require careful husbanding. And, for anything larger than feeding ~100 people, you'll require feedstuff. Which you transport... Ah. There's the lack of energy sources again.

Social dynamics are the least of your problem: The confrontation fans tend to die out quickly, or secure a fiefdom within which they ensure collaboration. Human beings pretty much default to tribal behavior. And they favor collaboration even across tribes. (I recommend reading Rebecca Solnit's "Paradise built in hell")

Really, it's a tougher row to hoe than you think.

Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#247

Post by groby_b »

User23 wrote: post #155
groby_b wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... coal and oil won't be lying around. Which robs you of your major energy source, breaking the "fix and use" plan. Metals are often in refined form, which means in many cases higher melting points. (E.g. pig iron is 1500K, steel is 2800K) We're not even mentioning electronics, because the vast majority of it isn't weather resistant, which means your "left lying around" is gone pretty quickly. Plastic is in many…

A wood fired still might be a reasonable way to turn biomass into fuel. And while farming may seem like back-breaking labor to the Aeron chair set, it’s really not that bad. You are tied to the land, but in the scenario that’s under discussion a Disney cruise vacation isn’t in the cards anyhow. You’ll want to have draft animals though of course as tractor replacements.

You need the still to start with :) But even then, you need the wood to fire them.

But yes, with draft animals you can make a go of it. It just won't leave you a lot of time to tinkertoy with the "leftover machines".

I don't think it's an unsurvivable scenario per se. I just think that the idea that you already have a starting point for an industrialized civilization is either quite naive, or takes a quite liberal view of "starting point".

Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#248

Post by mszcz »

dTal wrote: post #237
mszcz wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I had a different book by that name How Things Work by David Macaulay . I loved it as a kid and a couple of years ago bought two used versions so that my son can experience it ;)

Macaulay's book was titled "The Way Things Work". I too loved it as a kid - what an incredible piece of art. I firmly believe every child should have a copy. One wonders how many STEM careers it provoked. Your name confusion is understandable, as "How Things Work" was a popular book title - I had at least two books by that name concurrently with my ownership with "The Way Things Work", and I too was always getting th…

Yeah, you're right. I agree about the art, it was wonderful. I recall being mesmerized by the mammoths :P

Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#249

Post by gerdesj »

shanusmagnus wrote: post #241
gerdesj wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could try to dig out my college reading list (it was actually Plymouth Polytechnic - that's Plymouth, Devon, UK) but it was 30 odd years ago. Things have moved on a bit but not too much. Do you have a general interest in Civil Engineering or a particular project in mind?

Digging through your stuff would be a bridge too far :) My interest was bc this is a field that I know absolutely nothing about, and so the examples you give were suggestive of an exotic world. If there was something that could sketch out that world in the manner you did, it would be mind-expanding. I like things that give me a look into a proximate universe that I'd never otherwise pursue, e.g., if I could read a re…

OK, then get your search engine out:

- "Tacoma Narrows bridge failure" - "Roman concrete" - "Millenium bridge London" - "Concrete cancer" - "Gabions" - "3,2,1 concrete mix"

The last two are useful for DIY. That lot is just concrete. Geotechnics and hydrology are also fascinating.

When I studied this stuff we had a class where we grabbed some time to use the Poly's (Polytechnic - a bit like a second tier University back in the day - UK) electron microscope. I over focussed on our sample and vapourised it! We were studying "concrete cancer" which is a bit of a problem in maritime towns because salt in the air is one of the components needed.

I went to Plymouth (Devon, UK) Poly, which is famously a sea town and so we saw a lot of conc cancer, eg the Drake Circus multi story car park.

When you're done with concrete cancer then why not investigate how a building in Florida can collapse - ie this horror: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57631698

Cheers Jon

Re: Getting humanity to bounce back faster in a post-apocalyptic world

#250

Post by shanusmagnus »

gerdesj wrote: post #249
shanusmagnus wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digging through your stuff would be a bridge too far :) My interest was bc this is a field that I know absolutely nothing about, and so the examples you give were suggestive of an exotic world. If there was something that could sketch out that world in the manner you did, it would be mind-expanding. I like things that give me a look into a proximate universe that I'd never otherwise pursue, e.g., if I could read a re…

OK, then get your search engine out: - "Tacoma Narrows bridge failure" - "Roman concrete" - "Millenium bridge London" - "Concrete cancer" - "Gabions" - "3,2,1 concrete mix" The last two are useful for DIY. That lot is just concrete. Geotechnics and hydrology are also fascinating. When I studied this stuff we had a class where we grabbed some time to use the Poly's (Polytechnic - a bit like a second tier University ba…

Thank you for the curated journey!
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