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A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

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Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#241

Post by abdulla »

cogman10 wrote: post #229
tomComb wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it may well be killed, but that’s Ok - it’s an experiment. But, yes, you need to take that into account before investing time in it. The other mistake that I think people make is assuming that because Google is a giant Corp. these things will move quickly, when in fact Google often puts small teams on non-critical projects.

6 years of development and deployed to actual products is an experiment? The issue I have with Google is it's never clear to outsiders when projects are simply "experiments" that google is going to kill later. Dart, GWT, Angular Dart, for example, seemed like more than "experiments" yet google did a soft kill on Dart and effectively a hard kill on GWT. You learn that something is "an experiment" when all the sudden u…

Dart is core part of Flutter: https://flutter.dev

What makes you say it's being killed?

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#242

Post by kllrnohj »

pjmlp wrote: post #223
kllrnohj wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ChromeOS is also unique in interesting ways, although less successful. Chrome OS absolutely dominates the education market. So less successful than Android, sure (but so is literally every other OS at this point), but still very successful.

That is an US phenomenon though. It can be hardly seen in European countries, and I bet other continents are hardly different.

That's just not true. It might not be seen in your particular country, but it's definitely not US centric. Canada, Sweden, and New Zealand are also countries where Chromebooks are sweeping education https://www.neowin.net/news/chromebooks-are-seeing-huge-adop...

And the reasons why are pretty straightforward. Kids can't really mess them up, they are highly sharable (eg laptop carts), they are cheap (generally), and they have centralized management for schools that's otherwise typically limited to enterprise markets.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#243

Post by katbyte »

turminal wrote: post #112
katbyte wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would tend to agree, unless pinning is enforced/the default.

I think the idea is "ensuring software is always up to date", so no pinning by default.

until randomly without warning the latest version is broken, removes something, deprecates something, or is incompatible with something else. "always up to date" is something that sounds great but in practice has many many pitfalls.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#244

Post by ncmncm »

Jyaif wrote: post #239
ncmncm wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space for vtables is almost always negligible, especially so on 64-bit targets. So the main effect of inflated vtables is cache footprint. But where that matters most, you probably shouldn't be doing virtual calls anyway. Compilers don't get to say what you compile. People care about the speed of bad code almost as much as good code, and sometimes more: what bad code wastes, the compiler might be able to give some of…

> Space for vtables is almost always negligible, especially so on 64-bit targets. From the link: "I can report that a prototype of this was able to shrink Chromium's code size by 9%."

I bet that was pre-linked size. But that corroborates my expectation about Chrome code quality.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#245

Post by pjmlp »

kllrnohj wrote: post #242
pjmlp wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an US phenomenon though. It can be hardly seen in European countries, and I bet other continents are hardly different.

That's just not true. It might not be seen in your particular country, but it's definitely not US centric. Canada, Sweden, and New Zealand are also countries where Chromebooks are sweeping education https://www.neowin.net/news/chromebooks-are-seeing-huge-adop... And the reasons why are pretty straightforward. Kids can't really mess them up, they are highly sharable (eg laptop carts), they are cheap (generally), and t…

In countries where parents pay for kids computers, and worry about what everyone else is using, they don't get any uptakes.

Before COVID, most schools were still about pen and paper in most European countries, computers are used at home.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#246

Post by dmitrygr »

refulgentis wrote: post #208
dmitrygr wrote: post #24

The people who work on fuchsia are very good engineers - I’ve worked with many of them in person. But the project itself has always been a staff retention project. It only existed to keep said engineers from going to a competitor. I don’t know how any understanding of fuchsia is possible without this crucial fact

So I have, this isn't true except in a facile way—"it felt to me like they would have left otherwise." It shipped, in an important way.

What way? As an update to the least important possible device, that all users hate since it “crashes daily now”? Big way indeed.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#247

Post by kortilla »

sydthrowaway wrote: post #146
dmitrygr wrote: post #24

The people who work on fuchsia are very good engineers - I’ve worked with many of them in person. But the project itself has always been a staff retention project. It only existed to keep said engineers from going to a competitor. I don’t know how any understanding of fuchsia is possible without this crucial fact

This seems like sour grapes.

It’s a compliment about the people and the fact that there isn’t a clear monetization path for an open source project is another good thing.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#248

Post by trasz »

staticassertion wrote: post #184
trasz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>File systems aren't actually capability based (generally, in practice) because you can 'ls' and 'cd ../'. Otherwise they could be. That's precisely how it works in FreeBSD ( https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?capsicum ).

"generally, in practice" There's also openat on linux. My point is that the general, practiced approach is not capability based.

It it’s not capability based, because Linux doesn’t provide necessary functionality. FreeBSD does, as explained in the man page I’ve linked to.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#249

Post by skavi »

Banana699 wrote: post #206
skavi wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do feel that BLM is a worthy cause to support. This is mainly because I feel the movement can be seen separately from any formal organizations or individual people. I understand how you may disagree. Regardless, the real disagreement seems to be in where it is appropriate to represent the movements you believe in. Even granting that a technical document page may not be the best place for such advertising, I still d…

>then surely it should be at worst unsightly? What me and other people are trying to get across to you, is that you only feel this way because you support the cause. The practice of filling every place and institution with your partisan beliefs is a sign of disrespect, essentially a power move. "You're here to read up on an OS, but joke on you, you actually can't escape the all-pervasive hand of my religion. Here's s…

I really can’t see the equivalency between a political stance (imo a movement for racial equality) and religion. The former mixes, often by necessity, with technical documents all the time. See GNU or the Apollo program.

> In the concrete case we're discussing here, only progressive tech companies signal their beliefs in this vulgar way, no conservative tech firm have ever put "Blue Lives Matter" or "Make America Great Again" on their technical docs, although there are tens of millions of people who believe just as sincerly as you that those causes represent worthy and moral goals. The reason sane well-adjusted people refrain from expressing politics and religion in workplaces is because of common sense social protocols and unspoken consensus, when you break those, you're deliberately asserting power and inviting challenge.

No, but many will willingly participate in the US military industrial complex, which causes significantly more actual harm. So I think we have different ideas regarding who can claim to be “sane”.

> 2- It's probably forced. Just like the vast majority of Chinese scientists or Muslim scientists would probably do the above hypothetical signalling out of fear (of being labelled a traitor and a heretic, respectively), the vast majority of people in progressive-dominated social bubbles probably virtue-signal out of fear, rather than any geniune conviction. It's morally disgusting to force people to express beliefs they don't actually hold, or hold in lesser intensity than being forced to express. It's tyranny 101, straight from 1984.

You say all this, but “probably” is doing a lot of work. This kind of banner is uncommon even among Silicon Valley companies. It’s not as if there would be outrage if it weren’t there, or if it disappeared.

Finally, these are all reasons why someone who doesn’t agree with BLM would feel excluded by the banner. My original question was why people outside of the US would feel excluded. Do you feel that most people outside of the US view BLM negatively or indeed have an opinion at all? Enough that the banner can be said to exclude international audiences in general?

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#250

Post by formerly_proven »

staticassertion wrote: post #238
Rusky wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? The line you quoted from Wikipedia calls them unforgeable. If you can forge it (by printing it out and reading it back in from somewhere else, or by guessing a bit pattern) then surely it's not a capability?

So to recap, a capability is a value that represents authorization. The value must not be forgeable, the value must be communicable. If I'm unable to convey authorization by giving you the token, it is not a capability. If I am able to guess the token, it is not a capability. Delegation is not forgery. Forgery would be an entity creating a token without the token being delegated to that entity. Guessing is forgery, b…

> If I'm unable to convey authorization by giving you the token, it is not a capability. If I am able to guess the token, it is not a capability.

You're taking "communicable" too literally. It doesn't mean "literally giving someone else this bytestring and now they can do it, too". It means "there is a way to give someone else the capability". SCM_RIGHTS is such a way to communicate capabilities between processes. Further up above you're also conflating files and file descriptors, which are very different things.

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