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Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

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Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#241

Post by Melting_Harps »

danielvaughn wrote: post #43

Having lived in Boulder CO for several years, which is basically the Mecca of Americanized mindfulness, I can attest that this is true. The most ardent practitioners that I met were invariably self obsessed.

> Having lived in Boulder CO for several years, which is basically the Mecca of Americanized mindfulness, I can attest that this is true. The most ardent practitioners that I met were invariably self obsessed.

Over the years of living there I became even more intolerant with these people, I came from the Biodynamic Ag side of things so was pretty battle-hardened in the World of 'Becasue woo' to explain most things.

But, Boulder broke me... I realized that most in the US who heard about Steiner's work (I think most of it is BS from a conman) were treading the woke spectrum, affluent or not, but Boulder'ites were simply faking the most ostentatious facade: they would drive their Tesla to and from their mansions yet remain the most rude, stingiest, greedy people I have ever encountered--I'm from SoCal and I'm used to fake and rich people, but even I was stunned by the sheer numbers in just one relatively small town!

But because they practiced 'mindfulness' and had a pocket full of crystals and a yoga mat in tow they were somehow exempt from it all.

The worst were the mindful vegans and vegetarians, I did the most strictest form of renewable and regenerative forms of Ag, and had cooked mainly in historic towns with a long history of farm to table concepts--dating back 100s of years in the case of Italy.

But the absolute trite that left their mouth was stunning, I was incapable of speaking my mind as they were our clientele, but... the way these people speak with such authority about topics hey have no idea about is astonishing: most were professors from CU Boulder reminding you they have a post-doc BA in some unrelated topic, but they all have more in-depth knowledge about the intricacies of Human physiology than people who actually studied health sciences (I have a BSc in Cellular and Molecular Biology, became a Master Grower in Biodynamic Horticulture, and cooked/ran Farm to table concept kitchens and helped grow 75%+ of everything that was on my menu).

Personally speaking, my recent trip will likely be my last: the vapid and rich were always the shot-callers there, but it's with great sorrow that I admit just how shallow that place really is. All of the progress many of us dedicated a lot of our time and effort was undone in less than 3 years!

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#242

Post by somenameforme »

felipeerias wrote: post #205
zozbot234 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like the West doesn't have its own meditative and contemplative traditions. The Cynics and Stoics of the Classical world could have very diverse attitudes to wealth and material comforts, with the former being quite more disdainful of them and quite literally "living like dogs". We see the same thing in Western ascetic monasticism later on - some Western monks and nuns focus on helping others and doing their…

There's a passage by Chesterton where he jokes that many of his contemporaries had simply become bored with Christianity and would happily embrace it again if it came wrapped in the exotic garbs of a far away land.

An interesting anecdote I've experienced on this topic living abroad is how many Buddhists, in an almost exclusively Buddhist nation, have some degree of admiration for Christianity while having some degree of disdain for their own religion or philosophy.

I think it's the foreign aspect, but also another one is that when you have limited experience of what a casual Christian (or Buddhist) is like, it creates a falsely positive impression. Many of the Christians people in this country would be familiar with are a mixture of missionaries and people who came and did things like set up schools and hospitals for people at little to no cost. And, vice versa, Buddhists Americans are generally familiar with are going to be those genuinely interested in the pursuit for its own sake, rather than driven to such out of cultural inertia.

By contrast here you get daily news about things such as monks being busted running illegal gambling dens, and sometimes the rather more perverse. And there's also a culture associating various Buddhist icons with good luck which trends towards a complete bastardization and mockery of it as people try to literally use such for good luck. Think of something like the equivalent of a poker player praying to God 'Just one time, Jesus' while rubbing a crucifix. The various Buddhist "rituals" for good results during finals are well, not something that's going to exactly exemplify the moral pursuits of Buddhism.

Seeing people express something along the lines of the myth of the noble savage, when you're that savage and certainly not noble is quite interesting, and jading!

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#243

Post by dQw4w9WgXcQ »

dmje wrote: post #65

It's so typical of the rapid, results-oriented, outcome-focused world that we live in that McMindfulness has dashed into the forefront of popularity; oh look, I'll just ignore the last 2500 years of learning and sit on a cushion for 20 minutes a day for 6 months and, bang, I'm enlightened! Meditation is not about meditation. It's not about your time that you're on the cushion. Any good teacher points this out again a…

I see your point, but that is really not helping me manifest the latest Mercedes G-wagon into my driveway.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#244

Post by hzay »

In Hinduism, there's a four stage journey through life that's prescribed. You have these duties to discharge in each stage (such as marrying off your children) and until they are done, you are not supposed to be aiming for the goals of the next stage. I feel that's slightly less selfish than what buddhism prescribes.

Siddhartha himself left his wife and infant baby to seek a solution to his problems. I've never heard direct criticism of this act but there's a beautiful song called Yasodhara Vilaapam that talks about the sorrow and shock that his wife goes through after he vanishes without any notice or explanation. Selfishness is deeply baked into a philosophy that above all values personal enlightenment, no?

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#245

Post by colordrops »

cyberpunk wrote: post #227
colordrops wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term is "spiritual bypass". You disconnect from emotions, pleasure and pain, etc, see the world as illusion, and no longer feel guilt for poor action.

This seems like quite a fundamental misunderstanding. At least the kind of buddhism I practice, you never disconnect or “no longer feel guilt” or anything like this. Yeah, during Zazen we sit in equanimity with such feelings, but that’s very different to living that way all the time (which is impossible unless you’re some kind of psycho to begin with).

Yes it is a misunderstanding. "spiritual bypass" is not considered a positive term or a correct understanding of the dharma. It is a term used by those who believe in right living and is applied to those who have reached certain attainment but who do not maintain right living. At least that is my understanding of the term.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#246

Post by [deleted] »

Adraghast wrote: post #21

This would line up with a broader trend I've noticed and would be interested in reading more about: the use of pop psychology to justify antisocial behavior. Ten years ago, telling a distressed friend you don't feel like hearing about their problems would be incredibly rude. Now you can find NYT articles explaining how to couch the same sentiment in more acceptable terms like, "I don't have the bandwidth to perform t…

[deleted]

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#247

Post by sidartha »

I think we could distinguish between 'selfishness' and 'self-centredness'.

Mediation helps you become self-centred, which to the outside observer may be labelled 'selfish'. But it is really just the state of deep compassion for all being and perhaps the realisation that all is well (and I don't need to get caught up in your drama)

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#248

Post by ollifi »

minimoose wrote: post #201
pmoriarty wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you still meditate? What does it offer you? Has it offered you what you expected?" I'm not the OP, but after I practiced meditation intensely for a few months I found two huge benefits: First: before I meditated I used to get annoyed and bored when I had to do chores like washing the dishes or standing in line. But after meditating for a while, when I had to do such a chore I'd just focus on my breath and I'd no…

I've had the same experience, but using the sauna regularly has helped spark resistance to the mundane.

I don’t know where you are from but seeing sauna gain popularity outside Finland and Estonia lately has been refreshing. It is commonplace thing here and I don’t think we attach so much theory or consider ”using” it for any particular reason because it is so mundane. Maybe if you intentionally have to go to lengths to do it then you also think about the meaning of doing it more deeply.

Not to be rude, but to expand how this sounds to me - It’s like going to shower to incorporate shower thoughts to be part of your daily routine. Which is profound but at the same time somehow narrow view of the whole routine and tradition of having showers.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#249

Post by bryanrasmussen »

tisdy-01 wrote: post #221
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is almost the opposite of Christianity, I'm pretty sure you can find some sect of Christianity somewhere that will contradict another one completely, just consider the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912 interpretation vs. the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879.

People can and will bikeshed about any subject, this is about a core tenet -- the contradiction of which, would, at most charitable interpretation, be nominalistic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

>Unitarians generally reject the doctrine of original sin.

I agree that basically that if you do a random sampling of Christians the odds are likely somewhat greater than 99% while still less than 100% that anyone you pick will believe that Jesus saved humanity from sin and salvation is related to accepting his teachings.

Some will also say salvation is accepting his teachings and divinity, and some will say salvation is accepting his teachings and divinity and doing good works as well.

But not everyone will believe in original sin, and as such they may believe that you can be very good and still be saved without accepting Jesus.

This of course answers several common complaints against many Christian faiths that a good person who lived all their life following Jesus' code of conduct without knowing who Jesus was would not be able to be saved.

I don't have any particular side of this fight, as I am an Athiest, although relatively well read in theology (at least when younger)

On edit: also note that there were probably sects of Christianity that were deemed heretical in former times and wiped out that differed on this part as well, it is my understanding that the Adamites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites did not have a doctrine of original sin and Jesus' death being necessary for salvation.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#250

Post by raxxorraxor »

Trasmatta wrote: post #74

I've seen a similar effect in a subset of people that get super into psychedelics. In some cases, they seem to lead to a hyper inflated ego. > Yet a growing body of research suggests that such stories may be surprisingly common, with one study from 2019 showing that at least 25% of regular meditators have experienced adverse events, from panic attacks and depression to an unsettling sense of “dissociation”. The 25% n…

Mindfulness the same as wealth, beauty or general success can also be a tool to elevate yourself above others. Especially if your self-perception is that you are very mindful or very empathetic you might easily deduce that you do better than others and have to right their wrongs.

There is no golden rule and there are obvious exceptions, but if your empathy comes with a lot of animosity, you probably just deceived yourself.

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