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The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

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Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#241

Post by cameronh90 »

alephnan wrote: post #184
catchclose8919 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only real measure of success is "customer satisfaction", and I'd dare to say that the majority of the people of Sweden, UK and US are quite satisfied and some would have preferred even less measures to be taken...

> majority of the people of Sweden, UK and US are quite satisfied Did that include the people who died ?

You can't protect lives at all cost. What's the point of living without quality of life? We certainly don't take the zero risk approach with other aspects of living.

Just an anecdote, but I know far more people who are struggling with mental health problems as a direct consequence of covid lockdowns (myself included), and it seems practically impossible to get any reasonable mental health help any more. Even private services are overwhelmed. My partner works in the hospital and some days nearly all admissions are mental health, even during the peak of the second and third waves.

I certainly wouldn't have wanted a strict China-style internal lockdown, and the more porous western internal lockdowns didn't seem to make a huge difference anyway. If anything seems to have made a difference, it's travel bans and quarantine hotels (despite WHO claims). However, against Omicron, everything seems useless.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#242

Post by inglor_cz »

cmarschner wrote: post #231
jsiaajdsdaa wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely do not prep in that city. Maybe you can survive a year on a sack of rice and potatoes, if your utilities aren't cut off. But without guns and land, prepping becomes "hiding until the situation hopefully goes away"

The body also needs some other nutrients than the carbs you‘d find in potatoes and rice…

Potatoes are actually the better option.

IIRC there was a long experiment in pre-war Poland (University of Lwow, now Lviv in Ukraine) to demonstrate that potatoes consumed with milk, sour cream etc., while very being a very monotonous diet, can nevertheless sustain adults without causing them nutritional deficiencies.

Of course, you need to be able to tolerate milk, which many East Asians aren't.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#243

Post by bllguo »

kharak wrote: post #160
bllguo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a deeply philosophical problem that China hasn't resolved, despite ample opportunity to learn the lesson. What a bizarre statement. How can you simultaneously think it's a deep philosophical issue and also that there is an obvious solution?

I didn’t say it was obvious? Even in the western world, it’s sometimes contested. Still, the consequences of having and not having human rights have been observed often enough by now. Including in Chinas (recent) history.

Oh please, spare me. So what did "ample opportunity to learn the lesson" mean?

"Observed often enough by now," we don't need to talk any specifics, _obviously_ Western ideals are superior! End of history and all that jazz, huh? I was hoping for more critical thought when you rightly mentioned this to be a "deeply philosophical problem."

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#244

Post by jpgvm »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #202
ravel-bar-foo wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several possible Chinese goals here, none of which require permanently closed borders: 1. Zero Covid until mRNA vaccines become available to them. Given the infectivity of Omicron and the technical hurdles to mRNA vaccines, they seem unlikely to succeed here. 2. Contain the burn to one city/region at a time so that resources from across the country can be moved in, reducing deaths. Again, seems unlikely to…

7. Try to "flatten the curve" (keep the infection rate under where it overwhelms hospitals). Omicron was spreading like wildfire even in places that had reasonably strict measures in place and mRNA vaccines + many prior infections providing some level of protection. There's a good chance that China can't keep it from growing exponentially and very quickly with anything short of a lockdown, and expects hospitals to co…

This is both the most plausible explanation for current actions and future planning. They can't afford to "let it rip" as US/UK/Australia did as they don't have the same hospital capacity per capita and the number of resulting deaths would be politically untenable.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#245

Post by bllguo »

catchclose8919 wrote: post #168
gpm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's been working, both from an economics and health perspective, and the locals seem to be in support of it, except for in Shanghai Here's a well known person in Shenzhen discussing it. Obviously be aware that any source in China can't speak too directly against the government, especially the central government. However I feel rather confident that this thread is a pretty good representation of her actual op…

"working" ? ...as in just pushing some deaths a few months in the future while being extremely inconvenient for everything and everyone and damaging to the global economy to an extent that might be more than the price of those lives

China's policies have kept the global economy afloat. They've been operating for the last two years almost at normal, in stark contrast to the US and company.

And what a disgusting comment to make. Yes, how dare they stop producing goods for us to consume! Do you also discuss our obligations to the global economy like this? What is our comeuppance to be for our comically poor COVID policies reducing global demand?

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#246

Post by rfoo »

ejb999 wrote: post #78
whimsicalism wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, any crunching of the numbers shows that China has effectively averted 3 million dead of their own population due to covid - assuming equal quality of care with the US. I generally attribute that to the lockdowns, do people have another explanation?

>>I generally attribute that to the lockdowns, do people have another explanation? Yea, they lie - do you have any evidence that China will not try and cover up any stories that make them look bad?

Yeah, I lie and I'm already a dead man. Thanks to the Hell Express I can even shitpost on HN after I died, so it's not too bad.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#247

Post by jpgvm »

uxp100 wrote: post #216
rnk wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A less effective vaccine pretty directly leads to higher death rates. I read in other news articles they didn't aggressively vaccinate older people like we did. Apparently a similar thing has happened in Hong Kong.

Well, less effective on some measure is not the same as less effective as preventing death, and I'm not sure how much less effective it is, actually.

Data out of Turkey, Brazil etc where Chinese vaccines were widely deployed with less lockdowns/restrictions do suggest lower efficacy at both reducing hospitalization and death. That said they are still fairly effective, just apparently not effective enough that China is willing to activate the floodgates. Also they have low vaccine penetration among the elderly which are hesitant to take vaccines in general

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#248

Post by bllguo »

cameronh90 wrote: post #241
alephnan wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> majority of the people of Sweden, UK and US are quite satisfied Did that include the people who died ?

You can't protect lives at all cost. What's the point of living without quality of life? We certainly don't take the zero risk approach with other aspects of living. Just an anecdote, but I know far more people who are struggling with mental health problems as a direct consequence of covid lockdowns (myself included), and it seems practically impossible to get any reasonable mental health help any more. Even private…

You are talking about the costs of half-hearted US lockdowns that accomplished the worst of both worlds. Meanwhile China's strict lockdowns allowed them to end said lockdowns extremely quickly. Things like welding doors shut were temporary measures that let them _avoid_ things like lockdown-induced mental problems and overwhelmed medical services. Until Omicron their policies were working splendidly, with life essentially at normal. Even with Omicron it's only Shanghai being drastically affected.

Focusing on Shanghai ignores the >1billion other people that strongly approve of Chinese policy and who saw firsthand how their quality of life was _preserved_.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#249

Post by jpgvm »

rossdavidh wrote: post #170
memish wrote: post #15

Why are they still pursuing Zero Covid? I know the article includes some speculation on this, but what's the best explanation?

The standard rumor is that the Chinese vaccines do not work as well, either at slowing down the spread or at reducing the severity of the effects, as western vaccines (whether Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, or Oxford/AstraZeneca). So, the feared effects of having most people get it are worse than here. Also, in the US, the CDC estimates that for every 10 people who get it who were confirmed/counted, there were 32 who were not…

Yeah combination of several factors. Lower vaccine penetration, lower efficacy, lower hospital capacity per capita. COVID zero is the only moral option, they can't choose the death of millions.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#250

Post by sharken »

bllguo wrote: post #248
cameronh90 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't protect lives at all cost. What's the point of living without quality of life? We certainly don't take the zero risk approach with other aspects of living. Just an anecdote, but I know far more people who are struggling with mental health problems as a direct consequence of covid lockdowns (myself included), and it seems practically impossible to get any reasonable mental health help any more. Even private…

You are talking about the costs of half-hearted US lockdowns that accomplished the worst of both worlds. Meanwhile China's strict lockdowns allowed them to end said lockdowns extremely quickly. Things like welding doors shut were temporary measures that let them _avoid_ things like lockdown-induced mental problems and overwhelmed medical services. Until Omicron their policies were working splendidly, with life essent…

One thing that is left out is the efficacy of the Chinese vaccines Sinovac and Sinopharm.

They are simple not good enough to stop COVID, to do that the Chinese regime would have to choose an American vaccine.

Which they of course never will do, so one can ask if the Chinese regime really wants the best for their citizens ?

https://myacare.com/blog/comparison-of-covid-19-vaccines

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