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USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

overengineer.dev

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Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#241

It is super frustrating that it’s basically impossible to find good tech (in some categories). How is the author surprised about this though? Surely they knew about white-label alibaba tech, right? It is almost impossible to avoid it. It’s been this way for at least 5 years. I can pick a ‘white-label’ product by sight now. I suggest everyone develops the same intuition and avoids these disappointments.

> It is almost impossible to avoid it. I am doing these Type-C hubs, and other small stuff peripherals for a living. My suggestion, don't look stuff retail, and don't look big brands, even Dell. Pretty much any "brand business" had zero RnD. Their only feedback channel is the RMA rate. If it gets too bad, they just change the supplier. Instead, I really suggest going the other way. Smaller makers have no money for bi…

But the white-label stuff is so popular because it’s a ready-made product. Benefits (compared to DIY) include:

+ No RnD costs (staff and space, failed designs, prototyping)

+ No plant and equipment required

+ Smaller number of units required initially (no other outlays, so the number you have to sell is smaller)

+ Smaller time between investment and return

Negatives:

+ No innovation in the product

+ No control over manufacturing (quality, methods & materials used)

+ Higher risk of returns from customers (can’t control quality)

+ Higher risk of hurting or killing customers (product malfunction)

+ Loss of reputation due to the above three points (well deserved)

+ Inability to update design based on feedback

+ No control over price. You are at the mercy of your people in China after you’re established.

+ more. It’s a shitty practice if I’m brutally honest.

My point is: those upsides are appealing to both big and small players. No big upfront costs? I can just whack a label on a shiny piece of shit and make 2x ROI? Sweet! Reputation? Couldn’t care less, I’m small-time and can switch up if anything hits the fan.

Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree. Normally I'm against proprietary ports, but vendors that have done this in the past have traditionally killed a lot of birds with one stone. Both Dell and Lenovo's docking solutions are fantastic, and don't require expensive hardware to manufacture docks. As a result, you can get the full IO of your computer extended to a dock with 10+ ports for less than $30. Pretty great solution IMO.

The downside is all of the hardware ends up inside the laptop where you still pay for it and now can't upgrade it separately or reuse it with another laptop. Not that I ever remember Dell/Lenovo docks being $30 new anyways.

Yeah, I don't think I'd ever call it a perfect solution. FWIW though, I think most of the implementations I've seen leverage the preexisting I/O controllers on the laptop itself, which means the only added cost is whatever the proprietary docking connector costs on the BOM.

Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#243

Also note that if you have a laptop that supports Thunderbolt, you need a docking station that supports Thunderbolt. If you have a laptop that supports Alternate Video Mode, you need a docking station that supports Alternate Video Mode. AFAIK no laptop supports both modes, and very, very few docking station supports both. (you'll usually get reduced features if you have a mismatch; for instance, you'll get just one m…

> AFAIK no laptop supports both modes

Are you sure? From what I've seen, it seems common for laptops to support the combination of Thunderbolt and DisplayPort Alternate Mode. (Both my MacBook and my Thinkpad T480s have ports like this.)

Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#244

It feels like Apple should have done/should do an official in-house docking system instead of outsourcing such a critical component in the overall system/value proposition.

Actually they have a simple USB-C break-out adapter which has a USB-A port, an HDMI port and power-in. It works extremely well. You can connect it to a USB3.0 hub to get a lot of ports. I leave it at my office desk for day to day operation. If you want a proper docking station, a higher end Dell monitor [0] will do with USB-C, display daisy chain and USB-PD. It'll enable single cable connectivity to anything you care…

The newest Dell monitors have Ethernet built in. I just got a 16:10 U3023 and have been using it a hub / dock. No issues yet.

Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#245

If you want a decent dock you have to spend a bit of money. I went through this pain before accepting the cost and buying a CalDigit Thunderbolt 4 Element Hub[1]. Run's two 4k displays at 60Hz, any peripheral and charges my laptop. So good I bought a second. 1. https://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-4-element-hub/

While there certainly is something nice about plugging in a single cable, I just use a usb-c hub with a usb ethernet and a usb switch with my peripherals and then connect my screen directly This is cheaper in the same way I don't use a KVM and instead change the inputs in my monitor (Also, I'd have to figure out what DP KVM supports G-Sync and 1440p 165hz).

Same here. I can’t really use a monitor that’s less that 120Hz, even for engineering work. 60Hz monitors give me eye strain.

It’s impossible to find any KVM at any price point that works with 120Hz, and certainly not 120Hz@3840x1600. Forget about G-Sync.

I resorted to just keeping short USB and DP or TB->DP cable extenders plugged into the computer ports and have a “cable zone” where I just unplug and replug all the cables to switch machines. The short extensions are to protect the ports in the machines from wearing out.

It’s way cheaper than any KVM and it actually works.

Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remind me to never buy a laptop without a healthy array of dedicated external ports. This is lunacy.

Yup when you see both the price and the size of these docks, you gotta wonder why even bother with buying a laptop in the first place. If the goal is to hook up two 4K monitors, I'd rather have, say, a desktop computer powered by a threadripper.

Yes, but companies keep wanting me to use the corporate laptop, not my much more capable desktop on a dedicated drive. So technically a good dock is not a bad investment in that scenario since you aren't paying for the laptop.

Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#247

> I appear to be paying a lot of money for products that I could buy for cheap on random websites is starting to piss me off a bit at this point. The last 5+ years as an Amazon customer have me feeling this way. > Realtek RTL8153 Could the Realtek issues be related to power? I have a Tbolt dock which is powered using a DC barrel jack (6.5amps @ 20V). The comparison is not great as the dock (TBT3-UDZ) is not a USB C d…

At least with respect to macOS, the Realtek 8153 chipsets in these docks suffer from having to use the built-in ECM driver. If you're on Apple Silicon, that's your only option. If you're on Intel, there are some flaky but more performant drivers from Realtek available. The ECM driver will cause high CPU load and for many users, will result in performance that's worse than wifi because of it. You'll also get audio dropouts and system hitches from the CPU loading.

If you can find an adapter that uses the Realtek 8156 chipset, which I believe the CalDigit TS4 uses, macOS will utilize the NCM driver and your performance will be rock solid.

ECM is a very primitive USB protocol for ethernet, whereas NCM is a more modern and performant one. NCM is to ECM as UASP is to BOT mode, if you're familiar with USB external drives.

Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#248

Ethernet on powered USB-C hubs has its own madness unfortunately: https://lucumr.pocoo.org/2020/7/6/usb-c-network-hubs/

For macOS at least, the cause of this is the ECM driver that is used for the Realtek 8153. If you're lucky enough to find a device that has the Realtek 8156 chipset, which I believe the CalDigit TS4 uses, macOS will use the NCM driver and you'll be totally fine. ECM is a more primitive USB ethernet protocol and NCM is a more advanced one. The difference is similar to UASP vs BOT mode for USB external storage.

Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#249

If you want a decent dock you have to spend a bit of money. I went through this pain before accepting the cost and buying a CalDigit Thunderbolt 4 Element Hub[1]. Run's two 4k displays at 60Hz, any peripheral and charges my laptop. So good I bought a second. 1. https://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-4-element-hub/

Remind me to never buy a laptop without a healthy array of dedicated external ports. This is lunacy.

[deleted]

Re: USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

#250

If you want a decent dock you have to spend a bit of money. I went through this pain before accepting the cost and buying a CalDigit Thunderbolt 4 Element Hub[1]. Run's two 4k displays at 60Hz, any peripheral and charges my laptop. So good I bought a second. 1. https://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-4-element-hub/

To note, “a bit of money” is 250$ on amazon right now.

Two of them would buy a complete Ryzen mini-PC, which could be another way to convey how hard it must be to make a “decent” thunderbolt dock.

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