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Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

ns.nl

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Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#241

While having algorithms and computers dictating every aspect of train movements, crew scheduling, resource allocation is efficient and in a sense optimal, I think there's something compelling to be said about having a system that can survive with human-rememberable patterns when such an optimizer fails. That it can fall back on (or have at the core) simple patterns that people can still operate without algorithmic in…

As a general response not specific to this system failure: Train systems are designed to fail safe when not in state and significant safety engineering is done to ensure that if a rail system remains in a known good state over multiple decades almost every potential threat to human life caused by various equipment failure possibilities is quantified and reduced to a level of risk that’s acceptable. (Zero typically, for any known non-adversarial risks.) Many of the pathways in the fault tree involve shutting something down if it’s out of the correct state. So you will see train networks fail safe rather than run in a regressed state since these vehicles with up to a thousand human lives on board drive themselves to some degree in every modern system and we tend to hold them with a level for safety incompatible with easily winging it when something is wrong. This absolutely makes the system more brittle and less resilient, but for the most part it’s the tradeoff we accept in most modern rail engineering projects which are designed with the goal of reducing human loss of live to zero over the entire span of the system’s operational lifetime.

That said, train systems themselves usually maintain a ton of active operational procedures that remain part of staff training which would theoretically allow them to be more resilient and these procedures are kept current and you will often see them used in emergencies. I.E. on automated systems, trackway signaling often exists in the “not lit” off state and if the automated train control system failures, is often capable of lighting up for human controlled movement (usually required to be done at reduced speeds) of the trains during irregular operations like bringing stuck trains to the end of their lines and letting the people in them out at the next station. And any trains that still have a human conductor in a cab (or a cab for a human conductor at all) have procedures for that human to operate the train directly, even on segments of track where automated train control otherwise control all train movements.

We could try and run these systems in these degraded states under these emergency procedures, but most modern systems have safety analysis and engineering which focus on bringing the system to a safe halt state while fixing the underlying issue and returning to full operational state rather than messing around with rolling along in degraded states with unknown but assumed to be increased potential for catastrophic engineering failures with outcomes including loss of life.

(In the US it is generally illegal for a human being to operate a train unaided by some form of train control above 79mph. Most other systems have similar rules. We no longer trust humans themselves to operate these vehicles just because so many human lives can be at stake when they fail.)

Source: I did a stint working on system security and a little bit of electromagnetic compatibility safety engineering for rail systems. It was enlightening to see how the capital E engineers I was working alongside handle these concepts and design risk out of modern systems. The bulk of my work was in the US but the parts that weren’t were on systems that spanned multiple continents and/or train cars which were distributed worldwide. (To my knowledge none of my work has ever related to system discussed here.)

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#242
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it is a very weird way of counting. It was a question on Code Golf a few years ago: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/92657/count-to-... What is remarkable here is that usually there are a lot of answers in dedicated golfing languages that can solve seemingly very complex tasks in just a few tens of bytes, here there is only one such answer, and it takes 115 bytes. So perhaps one could say it's even…

That is not 115 bytes, but 115 wide (16-bit) characters, or 230 bytes.

05AB1E has a custom codepage where all 256 characters are one byte.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#243
post #61

It wasn't the IT failure that kept the trains from running. It was management failure, not ensuring they could run without the IT system.

Do you know anything about NL train management? Just curious, how do you even know this is a management fault.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#244

While having algorithms and computers dictating every aspect of train movements, crew scheduling, resource allocation is efficient and in a sense optimal, I think there's something compelling to be said about having a system that can survive with human-rememberable patterns when such an optimizer fails. That it can fall back on (or have at the core) simple patterns that people can still operate without algorithmic in…

> I assume that behind that were schedules that weren't so far from being hand-calculated

It’s more than that: The trains are negotiated at political levels! The “8:18 to Marseilles” (fictitious example) could be a headline in the news if the region refuses to fund it, and the worker’s union may have striked to keep it, while inhabitants’ HOA has negociated with the city to keep it under 12€: They are the object of a convergence of fixed interests. They run for generations: the train I took as a kid is still arriving on the same track today (and in one stop, it stops at track E; tracks A-D were dismantled but never renumbered due to this legacy).

The good thing with rails is that they aren’t going away, and trains can be negotiated for decades, they’re far from being scheduled on-the-fly.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My previous boss recently tried to pick up an enterprise solution. He runs a non-software company that has a lot of custom internal apps - 90% built/maintained by interns. Of course the intern-built custom apps are super buggy but the bugs get fixed immediately, and the system is tailored to the company's way of doing things. The company spent an obscene amount of money just demoing a full-fledged SAP-type thing to p…

First rule of SAP integration: You do not modify SAP to fit your company, you modify your company to fit the SAP model. You can try it the other way, but the project will always cost millions and it will eventually fail. It always has and it always will.

Nothing gets me as excited as a lowly footsoldier in a company as when the c-suite decide to spend $100mil doing a custom install of a big name software stack that will "totally change the way we work and at the same time be fully customised to the way we work here".

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We extended that at a technical college I went to for a while because so many of the teachers were downright incompetent. "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach; those who can't teach work here."

I had a professor in college teaching computer systems and design. Somehow he got to talking about the NSA. He said that back in the 60s, the NSA had computers that were running at 1000. “1000?” I asked, wondering if he’d forgotten the units. He replied “Yes, 1000.”

And nowadays they are over 9000. How time flies…

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#247
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m puzzled by the lack of resilience in retail sales. I thought “always be closing” was supposed to apply to all types of sales. A receipt pad and a credit card imprinter under the counter would be a very cheap backup. It would be slow, but at least they would be closing. It can even be considered a national security issue in the case of food, medicines and other vital services.

I have some experience related to cash/registers/POS. Card imprinters did exist in Europe (Italy) just fine, but they are not used since (at least) thirty years. Most cards that are presented to the cash now have no embossed numbers (most people have the national payment circuit called Bancomat/Pagobancomat, sometimes coupled - on the same not-embossed card - with a Visa or Mastercard debit). So in 99% of cases there…

Hmm, the last time I heard of one being used in the UK I can track to a date in 2002. My uncle bought a commuter from Dan Computers the day they went bust. The credit readers stopped working, because the credit company pulled access; but the retail staff did not realise this, so they broke out the imprint machines and kept going. Presumably the receiver didn't notice the flimsies, because they never either finally got the payment processed through the banks, nor tried to collect the payment any other way.

Originally they were the main means of taking card payments in the UK, though.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#248
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sidenote: If anyone out there is an SAP specialist ns.nl looks like a pretty great place to work: 36hr week, 5 weeks vacation, pension, and free unlimited 2nd class + low cost 1st class train travel. Those are pretty standard terms here in .NL. 36 hours is considered fulltime by most employers, including government and semi-government. Pension is offered almost everywhere and at least 4 weeks vacation is the legal…

>36 hours is considered fulltime by most employers How standard is that in the private sector or non former state owned enterprises? I haven't looked at the NL market in a while but most tech jobs I saw back then were 40h/week.

I have been working between 30 and 24 hours as a Senior Software Developer in the past 20 years. I have had several colleagues who work a similar amount of hours. I have been telling employers that I am only productive for about six hours per workng day on average and that never has been a deal breaker. The number of productive hours does vary from day to day, but I know that I push myself beyond that limit, I will run in trouble after some months. I have heard about studies that the average employee is only really productive for about two or three hours per day. With me working six hours per day, I might just as productive as someone being eight hours in the office.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#249
post #140
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the notice: > It affected the system that generates up-to-date schedules for trains and staff. ...boy oh boy did trying to look into what NS uses for crew scheduling ever send me down a rabbit hole. I don't know if the systems have changed but while poking around online I found this[1] doc about the Netherlands' timetable revamp around 2006 and it talks about the complexity of TURNI-- their on-the-fly crew sched…

> sidenote: If anyone out there is an SAP specialist ns.nl looks like a pretty great place to work: 36hr week, 5 weeks vacation, pension, and free unlimited 2nd class + low cost 1st class train travel. Those are pretty standard terms here in .NL. 36 hours is considered fulltime by most employers, including government and semi-government. Pension is offered almost everywhere and at least 4 weeks vacation is the legal…

Note that a pension is essentially a legal requirement. There might be ways around this, but it would be really hard to offer employment without offering a pension in NL.
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