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Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

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Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#241

Post by publicola1990 »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #224
warner_of_doom wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types Manufactured consent.

I agree with Chomsky on a lot of things, don’t think I need to watch CNN or read the New York Times to take Ukraine’s side on this one. The international condemnation and lock step sanctions, is that the media’s doing? Or is it the consequence of Russia being the aggressor? I agree with my sibling, opinions tend to stiffen up when war breaks out, with or without the radio.

It may appear so from the west for someone who is mostly depending upon major Western news sources, but in the larger context, many countries including Israel, Mexico, South Africa, Pakistan and many major Middle Eastern Nations are refusing to join in sanctions or even in trying to condemn Russian actions and is essentially seeing the conflict from a neutral perspective. Condemning Russia and trying to sanction them is not a universal policy among nations.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#242

Post by warner_of_doom »

avasylev wrote: post #163
warner_of_doom wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one side started and continues the war Not true. You have to look at the entire political situation in Ukraine, starting at least since 2003-4. And, especially 2014 and the US-backed putsch that took place that year.

I'm well aware of political situation in Ukraine. I took part in the protests of 2004 that led to "US-backed putsch", had nothing to do with USA. You're stripping Ukrainian people of any agency. Not everything is secretly manipulated by USA or Russia, people of the country are not mindless bots.

2014

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#243

Post by warner_of_doom »

331c8c71 wrote: post #179
mcguire wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lessee here,... Following several hundred years of rule by Poland and then Russia, in 1991 the Ukrainians voted overwhelmingly for independence from Russia. (I assume you think that was a mistake?) Between 1991 and 2004, two the administrations of two presidents retained close ties to Russia. However, in 2004, in an election festooned with accusations of fraud (serious accusations, not Trump-accusations), another pro…

> 2014 led to the Euromaidan protests, complete with violence, that led to that government's collapse. This was the time when Russia annexed Crimea and civil war broke out in Donetsk and Luhansk Your have written a lot but omitted the crucial details about the maidan. US instigated the coup and installed nationalistic government. The separatist tendencies were the direct result of that government's actions.

Bingo. There are audio tapes that prove this as well.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#244

Post by publicola1990 »

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #178
331c8c71 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people of Ukraine have ... overthrown a president ... It's more accurate to say that some ukranian people have ousted the president and let US decide whom to put in place The country was split nearly 50/50 between pro-us and pro-russian. Surely enough the second half was cancelled after the coup (change in language laws for instance).

If this is true, and 50% of the Ukrainian people see this operation as a liberation – why, then, are people fleeing west, not east?

There is a good number of people fleeing east to Russia as well, even as per a report in the BBC yesterday.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#245

Post by [deleted] »

publicola1990 wrote: post #241
jazzyjackson wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with Chomsky on a lot of things, don’t think I need to watch CNN or read the New York Times to take Ukraine’s side on this one. The international condemnation and lock step sanctions, is that the media’s doing? Or is it the consequence of Russia being the aggressor? I agree with my sibling, opinions tend to stiffen up when war breaks out, with or without the radio.

It may appear so from the west for someone who is mostly depending upon major Western news sources, but in the larger context, many countries including Israel, Mexico, South Africa, Pakistan and many major Middle Eastern Nations are refusing to join in sanctions or even in trying to condemn Russian actions and is essentially seeing the conflict from a neutral perspective. Condemning Russia and trying to sanction them…

[deleted]

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#246

Post by s1artibartfast »

mc32 wrote: post #190
thraneh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is NATO's objective except to defend the member countries from aggressors? As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, perhaps what is happening is about the control of natural resources. The entire situation is then politically motivated. Aren't NATO and Ukraine then simply actors that have been strung along? (Obviously at great cost to Ukraine now.) This would also explain why EU has been so quick to respo…

I think Russia fears an Embrace, Extend, Extinguish approach to geopolitics where their historic power is diminished or extinguished by an encroaching NATO as it absorbs nations at the periphery of the previous local hegemon.

I think that is part of it, but I think they also fear direct attack, or the threat of direct attack being used to undermine their geopolitical goals and autonomy.

People who view this as paranoid are simply not being rational. MAD is a defense against complete invasion, but not a defense against strangulation via power projection. They are encircled by the US which has invaded and toppled more regimes than any other country in the world, and destroyed or destabilized several Russian allied countries in the last 2 decades alone.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#247

Post by warner_of_doom »

inglor_cz wrote: post #184
throwaways85989 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I despise this western-centric view- were only the people in the west are real people, that can make decisions for themselves, and the rest is just pawns for playing a funny great board game. The idea that even a new-born nation, could walk out of the board game and do its own thing is so outrageous to the players, it is not even considered. Well, ukraine just tried that. Its a sovereign nation, and it wanted nothing…

As Václav Havel used to say, the problem with Russia is that it does not know where exactly it ends.

There's a geostrategic logic behind where Russia wants their borders positioned.

Your statement applies more to other countries in Europe, IMO.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#248

Post by refurb »

majormajor wrote: post #9

Mearsheimer also is directly blaming Ukraine here in a way that hardly seems reasonable. "When you’re a country like Ukraine and you live next door to a great power like Russia, you have to pay careful attention to what the Russians think, because if you take a stick and you poke them in the eye, they’re going to retaliate. States in the Western hemisphere understand this full well with regard to the United States."…

The point Geopolitical Realism is that it’s Realism - how things are, not how they should be.

Yes, in an ideal world countries can do whatever they want within their own borders and other countries respect that sovereignty.

But we don’t live in an ideal world.

Countries like Vietnam understand this - they cozy up to the Russians, to China, to the US. Never getting too close and never pissing anyone off too much. Always assert your sovereignty, but avoid war at all costs since you’ll never win except at Pyrrhic victory.

They recognize that we don’t live in an ideal world and act according to how things are.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#249

Post by polski-g »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #233
polski-g wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine stays neutral and doesn't join Russia nor NATO?

In that case, would you rely on Russia to stay neutral? Why didn’t staying neutral prevent Russia from occupying Crimea?

Because the CIA backed a coup in Ukraine?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#250

Post by durovo »

majormajor wrote: post #9

Mearsheimer also is directly blaming Ukraine here in a way that hardly seems reasonable. "When you’re a country like Ukraine and you live next door to a great power like Russia, you have to pay careful attention to what the Russians think, because if you take a stick and you poke them in the eye, they’re going to retaliate. States in the Western hemisphere understand this full well with regard to the United States."…

I don't think he is making any moral judgements in his analysis. It is you who are imposing your moral judgement here. He is taking a realist position here.
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