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Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

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Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#241

Post by sudosysgen »

throw0101a wrote: post #238
sudosysgen wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If NATO was nothing but a self defense pact, I'd tend to agree, but then if that was the case no one in NATO would want to expand too much. NATO is not just a self defence organisation. It's an offensive tool. NATO has gone into more offensive missions (at least 3) than truly defensive missions (literally zero - I don't count the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan as a defensive act). For many members of NATO, th…

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion "How Russia Got So Big": * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1R_ycU_fS4 My ancestry is Slavic. You're going to go have a hard time convincing me not to worry about Russia.

I'm not trying to convince you not to worry about Russia. I'm explaining why NATO is worrisome to many countries. You can be as worried about Russia as you'd like, and they're going to be just as worried about NATO, and so are the citizens of many other countries.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#242

Post by age_of_stone »

AutumnCurtain wrote: post #72
stefan_ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a popular edgy opinion but I think it's useful to occasionally remember who has thousands of soldiers massed on the border.

HackerNews has a weirdly pro-Russia bent, at least in these comment sections. People talking about how NATO "shouldn't expand" (why not, if the nations involved want to join a voluntary pact?) and how Crimea is and has been Russian, even though the Russians invaded and conquered it in the past decade... Really odd. Not just making arguments against US involvement but flat out repeating false, pro-Russian propaganda.

do you agree that Cuba should be able to join a voluntary pact with USSR and US shouldn't do anything about it?

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#243

Post by vernon99 »

jaybrendansmith wrote: post #184
jcranmer wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO NATO doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO (at least, not for the foreseeable future). That's why, even now , when Ukraine is more or less begging to join NATO, NATO has done diddly squat to do so. A lot of the pressure to join NATO within Ukraine has increased since Russia invaded Georgia and then Crimea. Russia only has itself to blame fo…

I see a lot of opinions here that seem to want to a) blame the current administration, b) blame NATO for the current threat of war. That's like blaming the victim in an abusive relationship as nobody in the west wants war. What these opinions miss are the following relevant facts: 1. NATO has consistently pushed back on Ukraine's interest in joining NATO for fear of the geopolitical impacts, specifically Russia. 2. U…

#1 is simply and absolutely not true. See Buharest summit of 2008, where NATO explicitly welcomed Georgia and Ukraine aspirations to join. Current state of affairs in both countries is a direct result of that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#244

Post by elzbardico »

dragonwriter wrote: post #171
elzbardico wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It is not. The pressure for Ukraine to join NATO has been simmering for decades before the west financed a coup to put literal nazis in power in Ukraine. Don't believe this kindergarten geopolitics they fed your people to ensure you'll be happy to send kids to die to enrich the military industrial complex

> Don't believe this kindergarten geopolitics they fed your people to ensure you'll be happy to send kids to die to enrich the military industrial complex This is kind of weird given that NATO propaganda right now is justifying the absence of intervention—making the case that despite the illegality of current Russian action and the potential expanded invasion, Ukraine might get aid but essentially must be written off…

Of course, the pressure come from the US, which has proven in the last decades to resort to this kind of propaganda blitz before they embark in another unjustified military adventure. This is another "OMG!!!! WMDs in Iraq". And as always the American media does its part in manufacturing consent for a war that nobody needs now. Make no mistake, the US government is the aggressor here.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#245

Post by laacz »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #128
PedroBatista wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I fear for folks who watch that video, is they leave with the perception ( most came in with ) that peaceful Putin's Russia was minding their own business and one day there comes big bad NATO bully taking over the "buffer states". At least from the late 90's on, those countries knew what's up and they tried to assure their chances of survival. OF course there are multiple interests as always but after a World Wa…

Well, it is a bit more nuanced. In 1990s there was a surge in various nationalist movements in ex-USSR republics trying to establish national identity on ethnic grounds. In some countries this resulted in armed conflicts with ethnic cleansings. In others minorities were discriminated or pushed to severe their historical and cultural ties. “Alien” passports in Latvia and restrictions on teaching of Russian language in…

I am a firm believer in hat it was NEVER about protecting russians abroad. I'm from Latvia and might be biased, but evidence points that they have other reasons behind their continuous aggression.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#246

Post by yourapostasy »

I personally think the most concrete outcome of the current situation is that no future nation will ever give up any nuclear weapons they come into possession of without considering what appears to be the shabby precedent set by the Budapest Memorandum. As far as I can tell as a layperson, for all practical purposes NPT is dead, and smaller nations with the means and willpower shall develop their own within 2-3 generations.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#247

Post by twelve40 »

miohtama wrote: post #14
gfosco wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're too cynical, but we can have our own takes. From what I was able to piece together, Russia isn't the one starting this conflict, in action. It's NATO aligned countries trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. So who's still agitating for war? The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propa…

I believe people in Ukraine themselves want to align with the West, not Moscow. Or who would like to be governed by kleptocrats? It may or may not come with NATO. NATO is unlikely to accept new members that are already in practice in a war with Russia.

Ukraine is currently governed by a bunch of obscene kleptocrats, thieves and gangsters, who throw regular coups that overturn election results, imprison political opponents, and shut down TV channels, and has been for decades, and getting worse. Outside of willingness to lend its population as cannon fodder to NATO, it really has nothing in common with some democratic fantasy-land many here pretend it to be. They had 8, no 31 years to make something of themselves, but they remain a hopeless lawless kleptocratic dump.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#248

Post by ComradePhil »

krzyk wrote: post #37
ComradePhil wrote: post #21

Russia has absolutely nothing to gain by escalating war in Europe. America has nothing to lose. Everyone knows who wants war.

Tell that to Crimea people.

I have talked to Crimeans. They overwhelmingly wanted to join Russia... as do a huge number of Ukrainains.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#249

Post by jaybrendansmith »

vernon99 wrote: post #243
jaybrendansmith wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot of opinions here that seem to want to a) blame the current administration, b) blame NATO for the current threat of war. That's like blaming the victim in an abusive relationship as nobody in the west wants war. What these opinions miss are the following relevant facts: 1. NATO has consistently pushed back on Ukraine's interest in joining NATO for fear of the geopolitical impacts, specifically Russia. 2. U…

#1 is simply and absolutely not true. See Buharest summit of 2008, where NATO explicitly welcomed Georgia and Ukraine aspirations to join. Current state of affairs in both countries is a direct result of that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit

"The Alliance did not offer a Membership Action Plan to Georgia or Ukraine, largely due to the opposition of Germany and France." ... "Russian President Putin was pleased about the alliance deciding not to invite Georgia and Ukraine to the Membership Action Plan at least for the time being."

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#250

Post by throwaway6734 »

gfosco wrote: post #10
baremetal wrote: post #2

I read this as why the economist and friends want russia to want war. but maybe im just cynical and jaded?

I don't think you're too cynical, but we can have our own takes. From what I was able to piece together, Russia isn't the one starting this conflict, in action. It's NATO aligned countries trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. So who's still agitating for war? The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propa…

>The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propaganda from the same people who are thirsty for it.

Do you still feel this way?

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