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How should net metering affect your electric bill?

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241–250 of 332 posts

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To completely disincentivize any actual conservation If you are running off of 100% solar that isn't a net negative impact to the environment to use more power in nearly every case.

There are two environmental costs to this setup. The first is that if he weren't frivolously moving electrons through his heater, there would be more to feed to the grid for other people. So there is an opportunity cost of reducing CO2-generating energy production elsewhere. The second is that he installed a much bigger array than optimal, due to regulatory requirements, and that too has up-front environmental conseq…

Well one thing you can do is try to figure out the approx. carbon output of those extra panels and buy trees to help remove an equivalent amount from the atmosphere so you can offset the carbon output. Of course you are spending money doing this and one must consider the carbon emitted in the process of earning that money. Depending on his circumstances this could be very little or none.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 34 and am working towards being grid-independent because the cost exceeds the value.

As I've described here (comment in thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30195830 ), it would be essentially absurd to try to go fully offgrid in our home here near Santa Fe. Note that I define full offgrid as "not burning wood to supplement electricity usage for heat", which may differ from your view.

It's a lot easier for me than for you. I'm in the SF Bay Area, so my climate is milder on both extremes. Also I'm DIYing everything and scavenging discarded stuff where I can, so my costs are abnormally low. When all is said and done I'll have ~40-50 KWh of storage and a 20 KWp solar array for When I think of grid independence, I mean the electric grid. I'm keeping an existing gas-fired heating system in addition to installing a heat pump system. I also have a generator.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've described here (comment in thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30195830 ), it would be essentially absurd to try to go fully offgrid in our home here near Santa Fe. Note that I define full offgrid as "not burning wood to supplement electricity usage for heat", which may differ from your view.

It's a lot easier for me than for you. I'm in the SF Bay Area, so my climate is milder on both extremes. Also I'm DIYing everything and scavenging discarded stuff where I can, so my costs are abnormally low. When all is said and done I'll have ~40-50 KWh of storage and a 20 KWp solar array for When I think of grid independence, I mean the electric grid. I'm keeping an existing gas-fired heating system in addition to…

Have you checked to make sure you can actually disconnect from PG&E? Grid defection is not legal in almost all cities of any size. They make some exceptions for new construction that was never attached to the grid.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this model is common in other utilities in the US (both by water and gas bills are structured this way), with a large meter fee and a consumption charge in line with the resource cost. Electricity could certainly be charged this way (and should), but it would be a huge change in how electricity is billed here, and the PUC would rather just make changes to just the net-metering system rather than open the can of…

That's how it is for electricity in Texas. You pay a delivery charge, and then usage charge, both based on kw/h.

In CA it's the same these days with the advent of community choice aggregators (CCA) [1].

If a CCA is available in your area, and you choose to use it, you pay the main utility for transmission/distribution, but the CCA for energy, both on per kWh basis. It all gets aggregated on the same (confusing) bill. Because they control the energy sourcing, CCAs can offer things like 100% carbon-free or 100% renewable plans. Some even subsidize batteries to add to homes in exchange for a portion of the stored energy capacity.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Choice_Aggregation

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#245
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great that your power has been mostly reliable, but it is not the case for a lot of the people here. In my family alone, my brother and his wife lost power at the apartment they had then for 3 days during the ~2014 winter storm, during which our apartment lost power for around a day. My parents lost their power for all 4 days of the storm last year, and had to travel 15 miles or so to my brothers house after t…

Just replying to other anecdotes with my own. And I disagree with your assessment of our weather and government.

This is one of those cases where annecdotes of power loss have a much higher informative value than annecdotes of stability. The former tell you there is a bad situation wheras the later just add a little bit of context about the severity.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#246
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone had panels, the kWh price for daytime usage would be $0 or close to zero. Everybody would still pay almost fully for nighttime usage, while daytime usage and production would not have any impact on the bill. Right - but this is different that everyone expects it to work. People expect to sell power to the grid when the sun shines, then get the same power from the grid at night and offset them to be net…

Sure, but nobody promised kWh offsetting would remain in place forever. $ offsetting can still save you money. Also, because you entered the solar market first, you might have easier access to credit to upgrade it with batteries. So you'll benefit from price arbitrage more than the late-comers who have just taken a loan to install a solar roof and can't afford the batteries right now. Or you might buy a plugin car, c…

Taxes on gas in Europe pay more than just the roads, they're regularly used for general govt expenses. You're right eventually the tax has to go somewhere else.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#247
post #221
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t know what the solution is, but the problems are pretty easy to see. In theory, if you were dealing with one entity, it could be pretty easy. But you are actually dealing with multiple entities: - your utility’s transmission subsidiary - your utility’s generation subsidiary - your applicable regulatory entities - your regional grid operator/planning organization > Well, this is not in the interest of the uti…

Maybe it's just me, but I don't get how any of that translates to a defense of the utilities' overall behavior. (Though I appreciate the context -- thanks!) Why can't they like, suggest to the relevant authorities, that it be refactored along more logical lines, where solar power generators have the appropriate checks for safety (before feeding into the grid), and are paid a significant fraction of the value their po…

> Maybe it's just me, but I don't get how any of that translates to a defense of the utilities' overall behavior.

It's not a defense of utilities, it's more about shining a light on regulatory actions.

I referenced the regulatory parts several times because that's the largest factor of what they can and cannot do. For example, in most states, an electric utility must first seek regulatory approval to raise prices even for emergency infrastructure repairs.

> Why can't they like, suggest to the relevant authorities, that it be refactored along more logical lines, where solar power generators have the appropriate checks for safety (before feeding into the grid), and are paid a significant fraction of the value their power adds to the network?

The resulting Kafka-esque bits were what regional grid operators and regulators jointly required _a long time ago_ as part of the transition to a "deregulated" electricity market (e.g. this was not enacted in response to solar).

Those bits effectively add up to "make sure your power source(s) meet these bullet points before connecting them to the grid because we don't want unreliable power... or we'll fine you heavily for non-compliance and/or revoke your authority to operate in our territory".

If you, as a private commercial entity wanted to build a large-scale solar farm (or what's more typical nowadays: a cogeneration plant), you would probably go through the exact same process you went through with maybe a handful of extra steps, but not many more.

> But if they recognize that there are perverse incentives, why aren't they pushing, however gently and tepidly, for natural fixes to the misalignment of incentives?

For a more detailed example that's relevant to your area, take a look at ERCOT's interconnection guide[1] and a review document from UT Law about the current status and legal barriers to greater adoption of renewable energy in ERCOT territory[2].

Yes, it would be ideal if the the regulators could make a carve out for non-commercial, small-scale generators and allow it at cost or a state fund to draw from (e.g. if you're the only one in your neighborhood doing net metering, then someone has to bear the cost of say, pole-mounted capacitor banks: you, the state, the utility, or some combination thereof).

> If you were in a startup that had fundamentally screwed up incentives that prevented the optimal solution, you (like most here) would probably at least start writing the document that outlines what the system should look like, and push a little towards its implementation.

There are a slew of investors who want things relaxed so they can enter these markets.

Currently, that battle is being fought (and won) by entities known as distributed generators. These tend to comprise of the folks who are selling PV systems to homeowners for $0 down in turn for you leasing it to them but the giant caveat is they keep 100% of the credits/revenue from net metering. (Think of SolarCity, etc)

And to address the primary hurdles with the startup approach are:

1. Regulators like large entities to deal with and enforce regulations, not several entities. They will push back to make their lives easier.

2. If you ask a large company (or group of investors) to fight on your behalf, they are going to fight for what benefits them not necessarily you.

There are consequences to going rogue in a regulated industry. Specifically, going against the grain is what caused Uber to be disallowed from operating its ride share services in Austin for some time.

1: https://www.ercot.com/services/rq/integration

2: https://utcle.org/elibrary/download/practice_area_id/32/a/51...

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#248
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not denying your experience, but I was talking about my own. I lost power for over 3 hours just 2 nights ago. And since the horrible experience we had in February 2021 we (me and everyone I know) have been living in fear it might happen again. A quick look at Centerpoint's own outage tracker[1] shows outages everywhere in different parts of Texas. 1. https://gis.centerpointenergy.com/outagetracker/?WT.ac=OC_Im..…

I don't see why "fear" is necessary. Power has never been a constant. When I was a kid we had a box of candles under the sink and warm blankets stacked in the garage, and some emergency food/water to last a week. Now that I'm an adult, I still have the same. I don't understand this trust and expectation of flawless infrastructure, where "fear" would come into play. Inconvenience, sure. You should be able to easily re…

Because in the pursuit of efficiency, we are less resilient.

I maintain a old inefficient boiler for my home. It has a pilot light and stays lit as long as there is service.

It costs me about $250-400 more annually vs an efficient boiler.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#249
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like what is getting lost here is that the reason PG&E only charges for usage and not a fixed connection fee is that that's what the state wanted. They wanted heavy users to pay a disproportionate share of costs to encourage lower usage. In fact, they even put in a "climate credit", which is a fixed rebate users get that effectively makes the connection fee be negative.

Punative pricing in california is really a disservice to customers/consumers. In just about every other business, if you use a lot of something, you get a discount. For california electricity, it's the opposite.

Why would anybody get a discount to pollute more?

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> The reason why it is not done is because it would lay bare all the inequities in the system, Is that a common justification for UBI? I have not heard it but it would be a big reasons for me to support it - any reading you know of?

It is a personal conjecture. Every time I come across price obfuscation, or not doing the straight forward thing, it is because the seller does not want the transaction to be as transparent as possible. Tax deductions, credits, student loans, subsidized mortgages, taxpayer funded pensions, Medicaid reimbursing differently (lower) than Medicare reimbursing differently than Tricare, and so on and so forth. It is always…

I think I heartily agree.

Openness is a great default, and while I will say a lot of things are more complicated than I know, this will at least drive the discussion into the open.

IIRR Fannie Mae originally had explicit anti-Black lending policies. I do wonder how that would have been dealt with in a more open environment.

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