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Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

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Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#241

Post by waspight »

porcoda wrote: post #18

This sort of began when we all got the impression that software should be free, or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. Given that developers need to be paid, and resources cost money, there needs to be a way to rectify that gap between the consumer and maintainer. At one point we did so by paying for an initial version of software, and then paying for updates. Now that we don’t do that, but…

It would be rather hard to sell one time software today and then sell an update once a year. Why? Because most software is in the cloud or has a great dependence on at least a backend in the cloud. I think it is more difficult (and dumb, from a security/quality perspective) to have multiple versions of the backend, with different patches and features applied depending on version bought.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#242

Post by justsomehnguy »

josephcsible wrote: post #164
justsomehnguy wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I'll bite: And ten years later, when all developers who did the development for these FOSS products are only found on a sheep farms (because duh, somehow FOSS projects developed in your free time doesn't pay for a 3 bedroom house in SF and nobody bothers to pay for a free (as in beer) *GPL products and all Subscription companies are bankrupt because everyone went *GPL), who would develop these FOSS replacements…

Red Hat, Grafana, and Nextcloud all seem to be doing fine.

As usual, a couple of behemoths are presented as an example, completely ignoring everything else.

Should I remind you what RH is a subscription service?

What about all other, non-GPL software (and companies which developed it) which would be extinct, because "everyone moved to *GPL-like"?

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#243

Post by chii »

Kbelicius wrote: post #216
chii wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and yet if a lock could be picked, you don't get to exchange it for another one that couldn't be! Analogies breakdown when compared too carefully. I think software sellers is doing a courtesy when they provide security updates for free. They are not legally obligated to do it. The users are entitled to switch to a competitor however - by not having their data held hostage (which, i think modern laws don't properly ad…

> and yet if a lock could be picked, you don't get to exchange it for another one that couldn't be! Analogies breakdown when compared too carefully. There are no locks that can't be picked. If it unlocks itself all the time you bet your ass that I'll get to exchange it for a new one. Maybe you should be more careful when making analogies.

I picked the lock analogy deliberately, because like locks, there are no software that has no security vulnerabilities.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#244

Post by achenet »

pembrook wrote: post #36

A conversation needs to be had over subscription humans. The real world today is increasingly run by subscription humans, or “employees.” They are lazy, business-hostile, and rent extracting. My most recent experience is John and Amy and Sam, completely do-nothing, scam people who command ridiculous amounts of salary with no easy way to fire them or unsubscribe. What has the world come to, where labor has been approp…

Yes, I miss the good old days, when you could just pay the one upfront cost for your slave and use them as long as you wanted.

;)

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#245

Post by rglullis »

azalemeth wrote: post #69
coldtea wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sort of began when we all got the impression that software should be free, or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. Blame the victim? We din't get any impression, as we don't set the prices. The companies set those prices. For example Adobe customers never got or set any impression that "software should be free/low price". They paid 100s to 1000s of dollars for each update or package r…

The other model that works well is the open source one, with the maintainer having "another job"; e.g. academics doing scientific research (CERN!) or corporations who use the project internally. Unfortunately, the fact that the latter vastly outnumber the former means that the largest open-source projects are arguably corporate middleware or those of benefit to large corporations rather than users per se. People like…

If Apple open sourced their software, they'd go back to the same spot they were when they allowed other companies to produce Mac clones[0]. It's not going to happen.

[0]: https://everymac.com/systems/mac-clones/index-mac-clones.htm...

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#246

Post by enigma20 »

I hate it. I use Adobe Lightroom often. I'm stuck in version 6 I think. I don't want to pay monthly, when I edit photos 4-6 times a year in a bulk.

Wait till cars also become like this. Features of infotainment enabled if you pay subscription. Greed, greed everywhere ...

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#247

Post by tjoff »

warrenm wrote: post #233
tjoff wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recurring expenses very often isn't necessary though. For software the initial costs are big, but after that it can be pretty low maintenance or at least costing much less to develop new features when the foundation is set. When you start to think about recurring expenses that's when you have to find a way to justify those expenses. And that is usually by adding bloat and unnecessary features that those that already…

>For software the initial costs are big, but after that it can be pretty low maintenance or at least costing much less to develop new features when the foundation is set. Written by someone who - probably - doesn't understand how complex software is to write/update/expand/maintain

Oh I am. The whole point was that you might not need to write/update/expand as much as you think.

And the case have previously been that such development is largely paid for by new users.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#248

Post by AlexandrB »

coldtea wrote: post #189
toyg wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost no software these days is "made and sold once" because of network support - even the most "local" apps will have stuff like saving settings or document to remote servers, talking to network peers, receiving updates when new OS versions are released, and so on. Anything sold on Apple platforms, for example, nowadays has to be updated at least once a year just to keep up.

A lot of the "network support" is unwanted BS nobody asked for, that could be sold separately (or be open to other providers to offer). Like the BS "Adobe Cloud" they give you when you subscribe to the CSuite. > Anything sold on Apple platforms, for example, nowadays has to be updated at least once a year just to keep up. Factually wrong.

Can confirm. I still use Sparrow for email on MacOS. Yes that Sparrow - the one bought by Google and discontinued a decade ago.

I think the need to update software constantly is sometimes a self fulfilling prophecy with SaaS. Features that need constant maintenance get added because: "Why not? We have a continuous income stream."

Edit:

Another example: I use Transmit on iOS. It hasn't been updated since 2017[1] because of lack of sales. Still works great on the latest iOS/iPhone.

[1] https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-transmit-ios/

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#249

Post by SamuelAdams »

enigma20 wrote: post #246

I hate it. I use Adobe Lightroom often. I'm stuck in version 6 I think. I don't want to pay monthly, when I edit photos 4-6 times a year in a bulk. Wait till cars also become like this. Features of infotainment enabled if you pay subscription. Greed, greed everywhere ...

Cars are already like this, sadly.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/43329/toyota-made-its-key-fob-...

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#250

Post by warrenm »

willis936 wrote: post #237
warrenm wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nobody asked for subscriptions. Nobody likes them That's patently false I, for one, happen to like being able to push costs from capex to opex (and yes, that's true for my own personal use like it is for business use) *for most things) - a subscription price gives me a closer approximation of a given tool's/service's value proposition than does a one-off purchase (most of the time) Everything from car leases (albeit…

Leasing vs. ownership of cars is a great example of having a choice between ownership and a service. About 1/3 of cars are leased rather than owned. I should say your choice to subscribe should not be taken away. I don't think my choice to own should be taken away.

The example breaks-down (no pun intended) on cars, though: software is likely not usable after 3-5 years (the length of a normal car lease)

Cars are typically usable for well over a decade :)

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