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We need to reclaim our attention

theguardian.com

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Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#241

Post by tomxor »

dredmorbius wrote: post #101
tomxor wrote: post #27

> wearing a gas mask for two days a week outside isn’t the answer to pollution. It might, for a short period of time, keep certain effects at bay, but it’s not sustainable, and it doesn’t address the systemic issues. I don't think this is the most accurate analogy. The most attention draining parts of the web/internet are some kind of social platform. I needn't list them, you know what they are... they are not analog…

Air surrounds us. Social media --- those site which we don't need to name because we all know what they are --- surround us socially . I don't use the F, or the T, or the IG, or the YT, or the TT. But I sure as heck live in the world they create. In most of the West they've permeate politics and culture. It's often difficult to engage with businesses, or governments, or your own job, without having a presence on thes…

I think you're correct to point out they indirectly affect us all through their impact on society as a whole.

However what I meant (but failed to say explicitly), is that it is unlike breathing air (which is impossible to avoid), because partaking in these platforms personally is still optional for most people in the world - Maybe it's different in the US but you certainly don't need any of it for your job or government purposes in the UK and I expect most of the EU, and of course none of the east.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#242

Post by FearlessNebula »

wott wrote: post #43
ErikVandeWater wrote: post #10

The problem isn't as much that social media is addictive. The issue is that people aren't happy with their other options of what to do. If you have a draining job and don't have energy to put into a hobby, or you don't have lots of friends to hang out with, you're much more likely to waste time on something addictive.

> if you have a draining job and don't have energy Never in modern times have we worked less. It is not that much the 7 or 8 hours of not-quite-daily work which make us tired, it is that on top of it come the 2 or 3 hours of not-really-interesting-but-designed-for-addiction serials watching, the 1 hour of news article browsing, the 2 hours of reading and sometimes writing hundreds of comments about what makes us rage…

This. I find scrolling Reddit to be exhausting

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#243

Post by radicalbyte »

dominotw wrote: post #33
radicalbyte wrote: post #18

My attention has collapsed in recent times, but it's not because of mobiles. It's because I have three young kids. You literally have to keep your eye on them at all times so you stop them killing themselves. Also, going from 8 hrs of sleep a night + 1 hr of intensive sport a day to 4-5 hrs of sleep a night and 1 hr of sport a year is an absolute mind killer. When I was younger I could never imagine going into manage…

> 1 hr of intensive sport a day to 1 hr of sport a year did you make this tradeoff by choice( vs religious reasons ect) . I've never been that active but you sound like someone who enjoyed sports and being active.

COVID. I've also been working 80hr weeks for nearly two years now; first building the NL Contact Tracing (GAEN) app and then building the EU and NL vaccination credential systems. Both of which I'm proud of - our work saved lives - and it's worth having a couple of hectic years.

Honestly it wouldn't have been much different if I had been on a normal project; with the COVID measures the kids were at home (so no day sport) and by the time they're asleep the gym is closed. We moved during COVID - I even built my house gym - but it's covered in boxes which we've not had time to sort out (and they're from my wife's crap, so I can't touch them).

My wife owns a group of pharmacies and has been as busy as I have been - they've been running on emergency mode for almost two years, same thing as in most of the medical industry.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#244

Post by 37 »

neuronic wrote: post #194
37 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. It is baked into their business model, to monetize your attention. And they have gotten very good at it. A "race to the bottom of the brain stem" as Tristan Harris likes to put it[0] is the correct way to look at it, AFAICT. To me, it's also a problem of "Moloch does it". Scott Alexander describes it well and gives a handful of great examples in Part I of his Meditations on Moloch.[1] [0] https://www.bloombe…

Of all the examples, reddit is the scariest to me. People think it's a bunch of nerds talking about geeky topics (or whatever) but as soon as a subreddit has a sizable user base it will be targeted by PR firms posing as normal users. More political subs are likely subject to propaganda ops bu8t Im not even going there. Some things on the frontpage are clear advertisments, there has been evidence of shilling about cer…

In my eyes, the worst is probably Facebook or Instagram or TikTok (none of which I use) but yes, I also understand the Reddit example as well (which I do use). And yes, even without speaking to the larger politicized subs like T_D, I do completely agree. Quite scary.

And it scares me 'PR firms' exist and are named as such because the term 'propaganda' started to take on a negative connotation. Kinda like how Google became Alphabet, or Facebook became Meta. Advertising, marketing, public relations, propaganda, manipulation.... where does the distinction lie?

Do you care to give a couple cases/examples on the Reddit front? Like proven scandals where people or groups have conspired to deceive? You mention a dude from Idaho, but I'm not in-the-loop enough to get the reference.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#245

Post by drawkbox »

Doomscrolling caused by "engagement" metrics. When engagement is all that matters, the most engagement comes when people are divisive, mad/angry or even pushed to extremes. That tabloid-esque reactionary content does engage people, but not in a good way. Information of all types give a dopamine hit though and it is sometimes hard to pull away.

When you feel yourself getting bothered, angry and you have to prove someone wrong on the internet, step away. Or if you are wasting too much time on it. You are taking valuable time from your own projects and quality of life.

People can have different opinions and that is ok, your ideas and opinions are what make you, see that as your unique tool to success. On top of that many "organic opinions" are actually astroturfing and PR designed to promote or get you to "engage".

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#247

Post by woolion »

slibhb wrote: post #42

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky. I agree with them. It's hard to pay attention to something for long unless it's entertaining. Reading a book, reading a paper, etc -- these activities take discipline that most people don't develop or don't often apply. This isn't new. The mista…

Anecdotal evidence etc. I have been having a feeling that my attention span is generally lower than before. I don't have a smartphone, no TV since more than 10 years ago, but there's the internet. Unfortunately working as a programmer requires constant connection (at least to be available to colleagues on chat, even non-remote). We've been experimenting with cutting off internet entirely for some days (e.g. yesterday), and I feel much better already. It's really magical how the nagging compulsion to check notifications disappears. No need to do any complex software setup, you go to the router and turn it off. So I think that quite clearly even with some mental fortitude and knowledge of the issue, you cannot really be immune to the attention-lowering effect.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#248

Post by seanp2k2 »

DeWilde wrote: post #187
trwhite wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video games are immensely addictive. The burst of adrenaline some of the recent online FPS' give me doesn't compare to any other feeling or experience I've had as a human being. They didn't just happen to be this way. They have been designed to be so thrilling that normal life cannot compete.

> They have been designed to be so thrilling that normal life cannot compete. Maybe today's normal life, at least for us in the developed world. But I'd wager that spear hunting a wild animal in the woods with your fellow tribe-mates is far more thrilling and rewarding than any video game. That could be the issue, our brains don't differ from our ancestors who did things like those, regular life today lacks life-thre…

Try rock climbing, snowboarding, kite surfing, mountain biking, etc…all quite popular among my friends and colleagues in the tech industry and all quite thrilling.

Luckily, there are still tons of accessible activities with choose-your-own levels of risk and excitement that involve physical effort instead of focusing on a screen.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#249

Post by woolion »

bnralt wrote: post #173
slibhb wrote: post #42

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky. I agree with them. It's hard to pay attention to something for long unless it's entertaining. Reading a book, reading a paper, etc -- these activities take discipline that most people don't develop or don't often apply. This isn't new. The mista…

I think many of your examples are of times we failed to counter problematic tendencies as a society, gave up, and then even worse (in this case, more addictive time consuming activities) things come along. It's basically the realization of a slippery slope, where failure to stop one problematic trend is used to justify an even worse trend. Society can survive with bad tendencies. Think about 50 years ago when America…

Technology does not respect biology. There is a mechanical view of man, that is similar to what hydroponics is to gardening. You look what are the required nutrients etc, and provide just that in a very sterile environment. Of course, the results are quite garbage. The fruits are tasteless, and the problems it brings (e.g. insect infestations) require a lot of pesticides. The technological vision is to solve these problems with new technological solutions. If modern life has become unbearable, it's not a worry because there are pills, wondrous cannabinoids, etc, to fix defective individuals. Quite a society!

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#250

Post by pier25 »

I've been doing 100% full stack while bootstrapping my current project for the past year and a half. So basically doing absolutely everything alone.

It's really exhausting and progress is extremely slow. It's not a matter of skill or knowledge as I've been doing design, front end, and general programming for 20 years. At first I thought it was because I was on my own, so the workload was tripled, but then realized a major factor is really the cognitive cost of having it all in my mind. The db, the platform, the backend logic, the API, the frontend code, the design, the UX, etc.

Now I try to not work on the whole thing at once. I focus on the backend for a couple of days, then on the front end for a couple of days, etc. This works, but there are many times where something doesn't work as expected and I need to switch between multiple projects (front, API, some other service, etc) during the same hour.

I really don't have a solution to this problem, but I wanted to share my experience. Hopefully someone who has been doing this juggling has some wisdom to share.

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