President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#241

Post by bellyfullofbac » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

mherdeg wrote: post #130

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #63

The scale of some Chinese people's commitment to support of their government's chosen narrative against facts is quite impressive / scary. Zealots make great cannon fodder, and the more cannon fodder the higher the chance of winning. It bodes poorly for Hong Kong, Taiwan, and any other country with a coastline along the South China Sea.

My low-information view is that the Chinese government is an extraordinarily effective communications agency who very clearly understands the role that university students play in transmitting culture, especially when studying abroad, and has very openly worked to help spread their message throughout their diaspora. Many US universities have a Chinese Student & Scholar Association and it's not like they try to hide t…

I wonder how much of it is similar to East Germany with their informants, it's possible that even overseas the students don't dare speak out because someone in their friend group could report them. And as the press release said, even the student's parents back home got harassed by the cops.

It'd be an effective way of control, "Hey why didn't you come to our student org meeting last week?".

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#242

Post by asib » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

Are you genuinely comparing Tianamen Square to centuries of slavery?

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#243

Post by slothtrop » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

Ostensibly consequentialist, but that is just a symptom of maintaining authority and order. Arguably many choices from the Chinese State reported in the last decade have been at the expense of prosperity and success, such as Xi consolidating power and cracking down on business leaders. Hyper centralization of power rarely works out well, and when it has, those personalities as in SK and Singapore favored Capitalism.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#244

Post by Zigurd » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

Msw242 wrote: post #220

Zigurd wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "persecution" is a cheap shadow of actual persecution, which was meted out to whole sexes and races under the flag of inherent superiority. That's not what the modern right is feeling. They are feeling the consequences of expressing overt racism and sexism. It is their right to do so. Nobody has taken away that right. It is everyone's right to reject racism and sexism and the people espousing it.

[flagged]

Whether a one-state outcome in Israel entails apartheid or whether the terrorists among Palestinian leadership positions is fundamentally different than Sinn Fein are wonky policy nerd topics.

That's not what the modern right is about. It is about denying the bodily autonomy of women, for example. And they wonder why women won't touch them.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#245

Post by jvanderbot » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

I liked your take on this situation and the tradeoffs, but please note I'm a red blooded American that just ordered a tesla, doesn't own guns, and couldn't tell you who won the Super Bowl last year.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#246

Post by Bayesian_bro » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #240

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

Completely disagree with your portrayal of consequentialism. Freedom absolutely provides utility, and allowing the government to disappear people who disagree with it is in no way a path to maximizing utility.

The American government "disappears" many people by locking them up in the criminal justice system. It's just for slightly different reasons.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#247

Post by gtirloni » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #238

gtirloni wrote: post #201

I worked with people from China at a previous job. They came to visit us (South America) and while having dinner I lightly suggested things in China are difficult when it comes to freedom, right? Their facial expression changed immediately. They said it was better not to talk about that. They were who knows how many kilometers from home, not a single Chinese national around to report them, and they still feared talki…

May they simply did not want to be put on the spot by getting into a political argument. Arguably you brought up a topic not suitable for a social dinner with colleagues.

Nobody was arguing, we were interested in their view. You don't know how close we were on a daily basis.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#248

Post by sschueller » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

I would compare Tiananmen Square with the Tulsa race massacre. How many Americans don't know about it?

The time I spend in the US I had the feeling that you have more of a pseudo freedom than actual freedom. Everyone keeps saying how free they are and how great their country is yet you can't even drink an alcoholic beverage on the street without getting arrested. You go to a town festival and the people who want to drink are enclosed in a small area like cattle.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#249

Post by stelonix » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

asimpletune wrote: post #230

stelonix wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subjective comparisons are really useless on a debate eg. "I think USA/EU are bad but China is worse" while someone else will say exactly the opposite. You'll then say "he's blinded by propaganda" and the other side will say the same. If the debate is in a western website, you win, if it's in China, they win. That's a flamewar shitshow, not a debate. The Orwell/Huxley comparison wrt the way China/America respectively…

Yeah, I mean you're basically saying if someone is so inclined they can approach any question from a perspective of bad faith, and never recognize any merit to a theoretically valid argument. I don't think that problem in general can be solved, even if we eliminated propaganda or otherwise. No one can make anyone agree with someone, even if they're right. That being said, I can still ask questions and say what I thin…

I believe discourse/debate on the internet are broken. I'll go as far as saying internet forums have failed because they're still text-only, moderation is still upvote/downvote-only and people are not obligated to add citations for what they claim. We're left with finding forums where people are more rational and less biased, which is why I frequent HN.

Still, the problem can be alleviated imo if we level up the way internet forums work.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#250

Post by Koshkin » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #206

stelonix wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only have to look at this very website to see the same happening with US citizens' support for their government's chosen narrative. It bodes poorly for Puerto Rico, Cuba, Nicaragua and every other nation who had military juntas propped up by the USG and still suffer from american influence. Some will go to great lengths to foment hatred against whistleblowers, such as Assange or Snowden.

Oh yes, I totally agree, but I just think this is on a different scale, and I might be way wrong on this, but... Imagine a US college student studying overseas commenting about the US failures in the Vietnam War or the Iraq War over nonexistent WMDs. Would other US students harass that individual, and if so, would they report the individual to US "authorities" to make sure a message was passed on to the individuals p…

> I'm not going out of my way to make their lives miserable

But things like that often happen in the US, like, for example, in the case of people who spoke against the invasion of Iraq. This can even escalate further, I will never forget the “freedom fries” or “Today Baghdad, tomorrow Paris!”