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Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

edwardsnowden.substack.com

241–250 of 266 posts

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll ask, why don't you organize with your co-workers and collectively bargain for labor protections, or consider voting in politicians who are for stronger labor laws, and all of a sudden they remember that their corporatist leanings are stronger than any feelings they may have about the "cancel culture" boogeyman. It is possible to disagree with your proposed solutions as well as cancel culture. The problem with…

I have to confess that I don't understand your comment in any way. If labor laws or a labor contract prevent you from losing your job for tweeting "COVID19 is no worse than having your left foot amputated", then when you do in fact tweet this, and do not lose your job, surely you have neither lost your job, nor been "cancelled". Maybe I just don't understand what you mean.

Being "cancelled" is about people's attitude toward you, not whether you remain employed. People will still know what you said, and still not want anything to do with you; that's what I mean when I say you're still "cancelled". They may behave immaculately professional toward you (because they're required to) but it won't be a pleasant place to work, to say the least, and you probably won't choose to remain long unless you're unusually stubborn.

In any case—I don't care for cancel culture myself, but I wouldn't risk the far more fundamental freedom of association over it. Social ostracism ("cancelling") is sometimes necessary, but only as a last resort. People need to be shown that there are better ways to resolve disagreements and react to objectionable behavior, past or present, which don't involve rejecting the entire person and all the good things that they've done.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to confess that I don't understand your comment in any way. If labor laws or a labor contract prevent you from losing your job for tweeting "COVID19 is no worse than having your left foot amputated", then when you do in fact tweet this, and do not lose your job, surely you have neither lost your job, nor been "cancelled". Maybe I just don't understand what you mean.

Being "cancelled" is about people's attitude toward you, not whether you remain employed. People will still know what you said, and still not want anything to do with you; that's what I mean when I say you're still "cancelled". They may behave immaculately professional toward you (because they're required to) but it won't be a pleasant place to work, to say the least, and you probably won't choose to remain long unle…

Wait, you're now using "cancelled" for "people know what you said and don't want anything to do with you", and suggesting that this is a problem?

The alternative appears to be "people know what you said, but ignore it." Is that somehow supposed to be better in some way than "people actually have opinions about good and bad, and act on them" ?

This just reminds me of what was supposed to be a funny (if sad) joke by Asheigh Brilliant:

   please don't judge me by what I do, or say, or who I really am.
> People need to be shown that there are better ways to resolve disagreements and react to objectionable behavior, past or present, which don't involve rejecting the entire person and all the good things that they've done.

Implicit in this is the claim that people don't already do this. Implicit in this is the idea that people cannot possibly be already performing this calculus and saying "well, yep, even though Tonya from accounting has done a lot of great things here and has been great to work with, her attitudes and language about overrides all that, and we need to make that clear".

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#243
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be argued that the separation of powers and systems of checks and balances defined in the US Constitution help to ensure that no single person or group holds too much power over the American people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers_under_the...

Isn't that only about separating government powers? As in separating Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches. I just don't see the connection to non-government economical powers. Seems like a stretch.

>> Isn't that only about separating government powers?

Yes.

However, non-government economical powers are subject to laws created by the government.

Anti-trust laws and anti-monopoly laws in particular were created to address problems where non-government economical powers become too powerful. These laws fall under the Commerce Clause (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commerce_Clause) of the US Constitution.

The law doesn't guarantee that people will be prosperous or happy, only that they will be free from an overly tyrannical government.

If a US citizen feels that a non-government economical power is too powerful, they should work with their elected representatives to make laws to restrain those overly powerful non-government economical powers.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#244
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty interesting and thought provoking point. Well said!

Lol! "Flagged" Not because it was off topic since I was responding to a point Snowden made. Not because it was threatening anyone or even name-calling. Not because it was inciting violence. On a site that touts championing free speech as a paramount ideal, a topic about freedom of thought, and an open disdain for "groupthink", my comment was flagged. I swear, this orange site has absolutely no sense of irony.

Your comment broke several of the site guidelines, so it was correctly flagged by users.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I'm not sure where you got "a site that touts $foo, $bar, $baz" etc. None of those things are "touted" by HN. People make up such generalizations, of course, but they seem mostly to be a product of the passions of the perceiver. Those with opposite passions arrive at just the opposite generalizations.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being "cancelled" is about people's attitude toward you, not whether you remain employed. People will still know what you said, and still not want anything to do with you; that's what I mean when I say you're still "cancelled". They may behave immaculately professional toward you (because they're required to) but it won't be a pleasant place to work, to say the least, and you probably won't choose to remain long unle…

Wait, you're now using "cancelled" for "people know what you said and don't want anything to do with you", and suggesting that this is a problem? The alternative appears to be "people know what you said, but ignore it." Is that somehow supposed to be better in some way than "people actually have opinions about good and bad, and act on them" ? This just reminds me of what was supposed to be a funny (if sad) joke by As…

> Wait, you're now using "cancelled" for "people know what you said and don't want anything to do with you", and suggesting that this is a problem?

Yes, it's a problem when it's to the point of completely disassociating from you given the opportunity to do so, and the comment was made outside of work, in a completely different forum, and not to them or about them. They're not willing to engage with you and try to change your mind, or even just to continue working with you (without being forced). They're jumping straight to outright ostracism, or as close to it as they can manage. And anyone who doesn't do the same is next in line—guilt by association is a big part of cancel culture. Often it's not about what you did but rather about your failure to publicly condemn and "cancel" someone else for what they did (or perhaps only have been accused of doing).

I'm not saying they should just ignore whatever specific thing it was that gave offense, though sometimes that is the right approach in a professional context. Choosing to working together while ignoring irreconcilable differences is sub-optimal but better than not associating at all. That, however, is something that people should choose for themselves, not something they should be forced into.

> Implicit in this is the claim that people don't already do this.

I'm sure some people do, and if they don't feel that they can continue to associate with someone based on what they've personally done then I support their choice. In the vast majority of cases, however, a more measured response is warranted which doesn't involve burning all bridges and driving the offending party into the outer fringes of society where they are likely to encounter others who were similarly exiled and become ever more entrenched in their positions.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#246
post #244
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol! "Flagged" Not because it was off topic since I was responding to a point Snowden made. Not because it was threatening anyone or even name-calling. Not because it was inciting violence. On a site that touts championing free speech as a paramount ideal, a topic about freedom of thought, and an open disdain for "groupthink", my comment was flagged. I swear, this orange site has absolutely no sense of irony.

Your comment broke several of the site guidelines, so it was correctly flagged by users. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html I'm not sure where you got "a site that touts $foo, $bar, $baz" etc. None of those things are "touted" by HN. People make up such generalizations, of course, but they seem mostly to be a product of the passions of the perceiver. Those with opposite passions arrive at just the oppos…

The prohibition against ideology or political statements is profoundly problematic when Snowden's blog post is itself arguably ideological and political.

That would make any on-topic comments on it fall afoul of the rules, would it not?

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment, and tolerance and disagreement is to be encouraged. Where I find a lot of serious conflict and resentment is when it comes to expanding on 'do no harm'. For example, I'm in favor of democratizing corporations, on the German model perhaps, and I view investment capitalism as a decrepit dead-end system, and the financialization of the economy as an unmitigated disaster. Now, a lot of people I've talked t…

> For example, I'm in favor of democratizing corporations, on the German model perhaps, and I view investment capitalism as a decrepit dead-end system, and the financialization of the economy as an unmitigated disaster. I disagree with you on every single point, but I would still support your right to believe these things and not consider it "harm". Where we might run into problems lies in how you decide to go about…

Well the model is Germany, where Tesla employees would have comparable representation (voting board members) to Tesla shareholders. It seems like a pretty good model, I bet even Elon Musk would support it as he's made his disdain for Tesla shareholders clear.

Also, doesn't it just make sense that the employees of a corporation, the ones doing the work, might have at least as good of, if not a much better idea of, the direction the company should take on certain issues, as compared to the shareholders?

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#248
post #108
post #68

> building out a similar technological and political infrastructure, using similar the justifications of countering terrorism, misinformation, sedition, and subjective “social harms.” FWIW, this seems to be a common thread in many countries apart from China and the US. “Sedition”, for example, has become the stick to use for any kind of dissent uttered in India over the last few years (a lot more so compared to befor…

I'd suggest that rather than losing faith in democracy you could look to the spectrum of democracies and see where India's is failing. In the UK we have to turn to the courts to restrain the horrors that our government commit, more and more of late. "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said…

Yet those courts condemned a comedian for jokes.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I'm in favor of democratizing corporations, on the German model perhaps, and I view investment capitalism as a decrepit dead-end system, and the financialization of the economy as an unmitigated disaster. I disagree with you on every single point, but I would still support your right to believe these things and not consider it "harm". Where we might run into problems lies in how you decide to go about…

Well the model is Germany, where Tesla employees would have comparable representation (voting board members) to Tesla shareholders. It seems like a pretty good model, I bet even Elon Musk would support it as he's made his disdain for Tesla shareholders clear. Also, doesn't it just make sense that the employees of a corporation, the ones doing the work, might have at least as good of, if not a much better idea of, the…

This wasn't really the point of the thread, but I'm willing to discuss it.

The employees may be "the ones doing the work" but capital investment is key to allowing them to do that work productively. The shareholders provide that capital, which (formally or informally—they're not obligated to provide it in the first place if they don't like the terms) means that they get to decide how it's used. The board is their agent in making these decisions. If they're smart they'll pay attention to what the employees recommend within their area of expertise—but then again "individual contributors" are often more or less ignorant of, or at least less focused on, certain aspects of running a profitable business which are nonetheless essential to remaining in business. To pick one obvious example: If your engineers create something very impressive from a technical point of view, but there isn't a large enough market willing to pay what it would cost to manufacture, then the product will fail. If that happens, the engineers are salaried employees and have already been paid for the work they put in designing the product. They may be looking for new jobs if the company goes under, but the shareholders who fronted the capital for that development hoping for a long-term payoff risk losing their entire investment.

If employees of a publicly traded company want representation on the board they can always buy shares, individually or e.g. via their union if they have one. However, not wanting to take that kind of risk is a big part of why people choose to work as employees of someone else's company rather than being self-employed in the first place. It's safer to take the regular paycheck and invest your savings in a diversified portfolio rather going all-in and investing heavily in your employer.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#250

Freedom is the degree to which you are able to navigate the power process. The power process is the ability to identify and change something within a system. For example, if there is a vending machine with coke and you want pepsi. Is there a process that you can use to make that happen? If there is, then you have freedom. This of course extends to bigger things than soda. "Sovereign is he who makes the exception"

> For example, if there is a vending machine with coke and you want pepsi. Sometimes, I think that western people are so constrained by some limits in their heads. Like "freedom" is a freedom to choose Pepsi or Cola. I want neither. Or I want tea. Or the drink that is traditional for my culture. But most of the time I communicate with americans, for example, I becoming convinced that freedom for them is more like: "E…

Lee Kwan Yew gave an excellent speech on this topic, applied to how journalism works in the US (where it acts as a distributed force for accountability) vs Singapore, where he talks about how Singapore has found other ways to achieve accountability and how outsourcing accountability to the press comes with its own trade offs (the press has its own interests; they are usually for-profit players). He made a very compelling point that countries will arrive at different systems very naturally as a result of different initial starting conditions, that all systems have trade offs, etc. Then in the end the journalists proceed to ask him the most thoughtless questions imaginable which I recall reduced to “but how will you be free without a free press”.

It’s on YouTube somewhere.

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