Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year • Hacker News Board

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#241

Post by authorityofnil » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:10 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #224

clouddrover wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have been thinking about it. You haven't: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/09/porsches-new-synthetic-... https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/news/magazine/2021/...

How do your links counter my argument that any kWh spent on creating synfuel could be used for something else instead and as long as we don't have a surplus of carbon free energy all the carbon free electricity used in this way needs to be compensated by fossil fuels somewhere else in the grid?

I don't think this argument makes any sense. Just because there can be better uses for additional clean energy, does not make the additional energy any less clean.

By this definition, no source is clean, because there are always "better uses" for energy.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#242

Post by theshrike79 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:12 AM UTC

andrenth wrote: post #11

Does anyone have a pointer to studies on the effects of electric vehicles in the used car market? I ask because the lifespan of current batteries seems to be around 8 years (going by manufacturers' warranties), and the battery pack amounts to approximately 30% of the price of the car. So people buying an used electric car will likely face a large maintenance cost after a while.

People tend to thing EV batteries are a binary thing, they are either working or broken. This is not how it goes.

An EV battery loses capacity faster in the beginning, slower later on. The falloff is perfectly predictable and easily estimated. You can check the health of a battery pack with a free app and a $10 OBD2 reader when buying one.

Yes, the maximum range will be lower than it was new, but it's up to the buyer if that is something that bothers them.

Compare this to the process of buying an old car. There's no way to know what kind of crap oil the previous owner has put in. You can't tell what shape the engine is in without actually opening it. The gearbox might just decide to break one day, the clutch might be on its last legs and the pistons might just come up for air some sunny summer day to enjoy the weather.

The only way to check for faults is relying on educated guesses (bring a friend who knows the specific type of car or take it to a shop for evaluation).

The difference between an ICE and EV is that ICE needs money frequently (oil changes, belts and chains and whatever wear down), an EV has That One Big Repair coming up at some point. And the price of batteries is steadily going down.

For example you can get a 3rd party battery for a Nissan Leaf _today_ that's 30% larger than the one that was in it originally. Just think what we can do in 2030.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#243

Post by adrianN » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:24 AM UTC

authorityofnil wrote: post #241

adrianN wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do your links counter my argument that any kWh spent on creating synfuel could be used for something else instead and as long as we don't have a surplus of carbon free energy all the carbon free electricity used in this way needs to be compensated by fossil fuels somewhere else in the grid?

I don't think this argument makes any sense. Just because there can be better uses for additional clean energy, does not make the additional energy any less clean. By this definition, no source is clean, because there are always "better uses" for energy.

The honest way is using the average CO2/kWh for the grid you're plugged into (including the CO2 emitted for constructing the power plants with some discounting function) to estimate how much carbon your synfuel releases.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#244

Post by noneeeed » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:27 AM UTC

paultnylund wrote: post #107

mfer wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Norway handling the increased use of the electric grid? I ask because Elon noted the US power grid needed to double output to handle a full is transition

Last I heard, they actually have so much excess power that they're selling it to the UK.

Yep, we've just added a new 1.4GW interconnect between Norway and the UK. I believe it's the longest undersee interconnect in the world. Hopefully more will follow, I think more interconnects over greater distances are really important to help smooth out both demand and supply issues with renewables.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#245

Post by _3u10 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:38 AM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #109

_3u10 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, used EVs depreciate quickly. I'm comparing new Tesla Plaids to the C8 Corvette and due to depreciation its looking like the C8 will be much cheaper, and much more fun to drive. The C8 will drop 30k in 5 years according to C6/C7 data, whereas a Plaid will likely drop 70k. If I spend less than $800 a month on fuel the C8 is cheaper. Currently C8s are appreciating their first year, which is really weird. The Model…

> Yeah, used EVs depreciate quickly. Yeah, not sure about that. Currently, used Model 3 LR AWD from 2019 with around 10k-20k mileage go for just a few grand cheaper than what I bought it for (new) in 2019[0]. 0. https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2019-Tesla-Model-3-Long...

Yeah the 2020 C8 sells used for $10-20k above MSRP but the market is weird right now.

I used the historical data for the Model S. Will definitely check out the 3.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#246

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #149

supperburg wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the states if you didn’t do that a bunch of idiots would accuse you of disproportionately taxing the poor since they can’t afford electric cars. Social justice at its finest.

>idiots would accuse you of disproportionately taxing the poor since they can’t afford electric cars. Are they really idiots if that's the reality of the situation? It's gonna be a long time before EVs are in the beater car price brackets.

It's a short-term / spiteful / envious-response action resulting in long-term harms.

As I've already noted, the complaint is common across the political spectrum. From the Left, it's usually couched as a minority / inequality argument that such policies disadvantage poor minorities. From the right, it's more usually aimed at latte-sipping, college-educated, elitist liberals.

Whilst there's some truth to both portrayals, the underlying reality is that the common weal is served by developing (and trialing) alternative technologies and solutions, and building out necessary infrastructures. If there are inequities that arise out of them, then other taxation and spending parameters can be adjusted to achieve a net-neutral economic impact, or to offer / promote conservation and efficiency options which are better suited to minorities and/or the white / rural poor.

Note that the whole divide-and-conquer tactic is also very often supported at least in part by the interests directly harmed by such initiatives: traditional fossil-fuel powered automobiles, coal producers, and the like. Look beyond the engagement at the front to see what the generals are scheming and whom they're manipulating to their own advantage.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#247

Post by inglor_cz » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

clouddrover wrote: post #141

anonporridge wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. But a key difference is that the electric grid seems to be drastically more decentralized than fuel pipelines. Pipelines for liquid or gaseous fuel have a huge upfront cost and maintenance requirements compared to running power lines, so the incentives are to build them as big as possible. Taking down a power station is certainly a viable attack vector, but the damage caused by losing a single station is d…

And you want to ignore the inconvenient reality that civilization has managed to keep running all this time? It's plainly not the problem you imagine it to be.

Wars with localized collapses of civilization certainly happened before.

Life in freshly conquered Berlin was pretty harsh, especially in the first winter. There was a famous street graffitti that said "I envy the dead because their hands aren't freezing off."

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#248

Post by sebmellen » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:36 AM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #180

mikewave wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's mostly because of the lack of midmarket cars. I bought a used sub-$20k electrical car a few months ago; it can be done. The market needs pressure to create cars in that price range; right now EVs are mostly luxury cars. Tesla is not the car we should be aiming for; what we need are things in the class of the E-Golf, Kia Niro, FFE, Fiat 500E etc. that are the size of a Corolla and cost 20k CAD or less. Until th…

>I bought a used sub-$20k electrical car a few months ago Out of curiosity, what make and model? I'm trying to find an EV and like everyone is saying, it's all luxury vehicles.

A used Chevy Spark is a great car if you don’t need more than 100 miles of range in a charge. I love mine, and it’s unbelievably zippy in terms of torque/acceleration.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#249

Post by TaylorAlexander » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:42 AM UTC

_3u10 wrote: post #103

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please donate to your local food bank. Many people are hungry. You can help. Perhaps this one is local to you: https://www.accfb.org/

Great idea thanks for the suggestion, however, I'll keep people employed instead so they don't need the food bank. “I believe the best social program is a job.” — Ronald Reagan

Many of the people who need the food bank have jobs. Wages just aren’t high enough for some. You could donate a few hundred dollars and make a world of difference for a lot of people.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#250

Post by nswest23 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 11:05 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #169

njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

I mean, I think it's OK to charge vehicle owners some kinda usage fee to reflect the cost of congestion, road wear, traffic accidents etc., but it's very poorly implemented as is. An obvious solution seems to be to tax tires which are the dirtiest part of an electric car, need to be replaced moderately regularly but not too often, and which wear down in proportion to the amount and and intensity of use. Offroaders an…

I was under that impression that it _might_ be the case that tire/brake dust pollution was misdirection started by the oil/gas industry? Anyone more informed than me know the real answer to this?