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Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

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Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#241

"This feature is currently enabled on Windows and will be deployed later for macOS and Linux as well" Look forward to trying this out when it becomes available for an OS I use.

One reason why it shipped on Windows first is that the situation is more serious there. The article goes into details why the different overcommit behavior is more problematic on Windows, and you're more likely to OOM there as a result.

Getting macOS to OOM is actually pretty difficult, we probably want to unload tabs before that point for performance (swap!) reasons, but that's also harder to measure very reliably.

Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to reply with a comment stolen from a different HN discussion: The fact that people (myself included) have 100s of tabs open is a symptom of just how broken bookmarking is on the modern web. Bookmarks are a miserable way to create a placeholder for your thoughts. It's too static, must be maintained, and generally prone to link rot. I'm a scientist. I open and read 10-20-100 links for a given topic depending…

That and the fact bookmark may ends up in a removed page, orphan link. Essentially people leave tabs open meant to keep a cache of it, maybe subconsciously. Bookmark doesn't do that. I don't mind maintaining it, so sometimes I use getpocket for that purpose but getpocket is not organized and frankly is not made for this purpose.

For me the benefit of using tabs over bookmarks is that from the order of the tabs you can figure out what you were doing at the time. With tabs it's also quicker to go back later and close what you no longer need.

Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I follow. Either that or I'm not sure you understand what I'm trying to say. Turning off Javascript won't suddenly make 900+ tabs easy to manage. The UX isn't designed for that volume of separate pages, the tabs are cumbersome to navigate and still just don't really lend themselves well to large sessions that span multiple topics. I'd believe the same thing even if Javascript had never been invented, tab…

>Turning off Javascript won't suddenly make 900+ tabs easy to manage. I'm fine with searching. I want to have searchable fulltext in those 900+ tabs. Just for a back of the napkin calculation, I took the plain text from this comments page and saved it, and it came to 52kb. My PC has 64Gb RAM. So even without any form of compression or indexing, I should be able to hold searchable fulltext of over a million tabs in RA…

Again, I'm not sure what you're arguing about.

I just said "the UX here is due for a lot of innovation." And you replied "I want to have searchable fulltext in those 900+ tabs." Where is the conflict?

Yes, you could build a really interesting tab/bookmarking system in a browser that blurred the lines between tabs and bookmarks and archival. You could do really interesting things with browser history, you could do really interesting things with all of these features.

That is exactly what I just said, the area is ripe for innovation. Currently, you don't have full-text searchable tabs, the UX isn't optimized for your use case. Would be cool if you did though, that would be a feature that would be fun for browsers to play around with.

Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right click for people with real mice

I have a real mouse. I didn't know that until yet! The long click has still the advantage that you don't need to click more than once: You can just hold the button, mouse-over the wanted entry, and than release the button triggering navigation to the history entry currently under the cursor.

You can do the same thing with right click :)

Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#245
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can never understand people that have more than 10 tabs open :P When I reach that number I start closing. Seems to me just a waste of space and the whole tab bar is useless and messy (yes, I know about tab extensions). People should really get back to bookmarks, thats what they are for. Besides my usual bookmark folders, I have folders to hold temporary bookmarks (ToRead, ResearchSupport, etc...). These I know I wi…

1404 tabs open here. Tab bar is indeed messy, I use Tree Style Tab in the side bar. And dozens of categorized windows, each with a name. I don't need an alternative or better way. It works great and I hope this use case remains supported.

same same for 20+years

i just don't have the time and energy to manage bookmarks it seems. web content also feels kinda temporary so i guess that is a good compromise.

sadly since quantum there is no more tabkit and the alternatives have a LOT less vertical density and the tabgroup-features are not on par.

Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#246

1. Just. Fucking. Unload. The. Tab. Already. I keep tabs around for context and reference. Lots of them. [1] 2. Preserve. User. State. I don't want the page to reload. I want what had been there to be restored. Page position, content, any inputs or adjustments I'd made. Not updated data, but previous state. 3. Do. Not. Lose. My. Shit. I can accomplish this far better myself than you will ever have need to do. 4. Any…

Holy hell, I thought I was bad for hitting 200-300. I didn't even know this was possible.

It's actually surprisingly stable and usable. Which may contribute to the problem ;-)

Tabs only load once directly viewed, so a session restore opens pretty quickly and doesn't actually use all that much memory. After a time, as more tabs are visited (and yes, I really do try to shut some down with time), the session eventually gets less usable, though that can take many days (I've not tracked this).

Moving and searching within the tabset itself is another part of the challenge, though at least Firefox will prompt if you're opening URL that's already open elsewhere. (Chrome ... fails at this.)

And yes, of course I'm using Tree-Style Tabs.

Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Mobile devices are so utterly unsuited to actual productive use for this very reason. (I'm quite familiar with this, have attempted to use them in this manner for years, and am typing this on a Chrome/Android session I utterly despise.) The problem extends to other tools -- Termux, useful as it is, also randomly gets garbage collected and killed. Best I can understand, Android actually employs some AI-based mem…

It's even worse now that multi-process is a thing even on mobile, because it means that tabs get unloaded not just when the browser feels like it (practical quality of actual implementations might vary, but at least in theory the browser should know which tabs have been recently used, which tabs might be playing audio, etc. and so make a somewhat reasonable attempt of prioritisation which tabs should get unloaded fir…

Yep, this.

Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#248

1. Just. Fucking. Unload. The. Tab. Already. I keep tabs around for context and reference. Lots of them. [1] 2. Preserve. User. State. I don't want the page to reload. I want what had been there to be restored. Page position, content, any inputs or adjustments I'd made. Not updated data, but previous state. 3. Do. Not. Lose. My. Shit. I can accomplish this far better myself than you will ever have need to do. 4. Any…

I can never understand people that have more than 10 tabs open :P When I reach that number I start closing. Seems to me just a waste of space and the whole tab bar is useless and messy (yes, I know about tab extensions). People should really get back to bookmarks, thats what they are for. Besides my usual bookmark folders, I have folders to hold temporary bookmarks (ToRead, ResearchSupport, etc...). These I know I wi…

While I can understand that point of view, Microsoft did studies and found that people learn static UI elements better than dynamic ones that shuffle around. How ironic then that they remade everything with dynamic ribbons, then re-remade everything with static ribbons, going back to their studies from the 90's. Sometimes you just have to change for the sake of change, I suppose...

I would use bookmarks extensively, but the UI elements to add, organize, and manage them have not kept up. We need something more akin to the Windows Explorer, to be honest - it's a great file manager that has stood the test of time since the 90's. Once I hit about 12000 bookmarks, I just stopped collecting more - it was taking way too long adding them with conventional UIs.

That's where tab usage comes in. Bear with me while I explain a use case, as this might take a few paragraphs... I'm also unsure how to word it in a way that avoids sounding arrogant. I'm in IT, but I handle support requests primarily from other IT people and businesses in my little corner of BC, Canada, and regularly handle a thousand or so support requests per week. (with no mistakes or missed details.) My colleagues have dubbed me a hyper-tasker due to the level of sustained speed and detail. But that'd be absolutely impossible without static UI elements. In this case features like tabs and Windows are basically UI elements for the tasks or data required.

I better get to elaborating...

Things that shuffle around slow people down, as now you need to search for the thing rather than go straight to it. Microsoft has published extensive good-UI-design whitepapers... and then proceeded to ignore their own research, a lot of the time. A good example is Alt+Tab - it rearranges previews based on what was last used, so if you have a few hundred things open, good luck ever finding what you want on the first attempt. I use 7 taskbar tweaker to fix that behaviour, plus taskbar behaviour. Alphabetical lists, thank you very much - with no previews. I decombine window stacks for that very reason.

Taskbars have tons of horizontal space - no need to jumble icons up and constantly rearrange them. I want the window for stock websites to be in one spot, the window for programming sites in another, the window for news sites in another spot, the window for /. in another, the window for printer remote servicing and on-site reset procedures in another, the window for videogame stuff in another, the window for looking up local business contact info in another, the window for web developer and Wordpress stuff in another, the window for electronic schematics for boat GPS systems in another, etc...

And when they get too many tabs, I just spill them over to another window, which goes beside the first. Since they are largely static, I can always find the right window for what I'm doing in under 200ms.

Then for tabs, I recognize the icons, and turned off all previews, then enabled keyboard shortcuts, so I can very quickly toggle between them. Again, each tab flip is under ~200ms (Depends on PC performance, but with Ryzen and 128GB, tab flips are always speedy), so I can do 5-10 tabs per second. Makes it quite quick locating what I want. Even if I mis-click and end up on tab 86 rather than tab 110 (out of 200 or whatever in the window), just hitting my keyboard shortcuts a few times gets me to the right spot. Since the tabs are basically a chronological history, I only need to remember roughly when I was working on something or looked up some information, and then I can go back in time or forward in time very quickly using the keyboard shortcuts. These tabs end up fully replacing the back/forwards feature built into the browser. Silly, right? Yet it works better.

Honestly, if someone asks me to flip to some task, it's usually about 3-4 seconds at most to get there, even with well in excess of a thousand open. When you're juggling a lot of tasks throughout the day for a multitude of clients and their clients, this shoots your productivity through the roof. 60-80 emails? 40 phonecalls? Oodles of tickets? No problem getting everything done. After all, all the tabs are up in front of you, waiting to go.

And if for some reason you brain-fart on where something is, now most web browsers have a tab search feature too. Takes a bit longer, but you can still get to the right tab in 10-15 seconds typically.

It's really work scenarios like this that drive this sort of need. When you're basically the helpdesk for multiple companies and other IT people and all their clients and their diverse tasks/requests. But I could see anyone that engages in heavy duty rabbit-hole research benefiting from similar UI use, perhaps with slightly less activity throughout the day, but still needing to keep tons of sites open and available until project completion. The difference there would be that they're working on a few larger projects, not dozens and dozens of smaller ones driven by clients.

I think most people that don't do this sort of hyper-tasking have no idea how proficient you can get at it. It's like those secretaries that pull off 200-300wpm on Dvorak or other keyboard layouts. Most of us are sitting in a more reasonable 30-60wpm range. Or those people that power-slide the lambo into a parking stall on a movie. It's way outside the realm of average use and skill, but you can't help but be impressed when you witness that proficiency.

Hyper-tasking is a skill that takes years to build up, as it requires mind, computer and software workspace to all be in sync with one another. But when you sit behind someone and watch them fielding requests and handling tasks that would normally take a team of 5 or 10 people, it's quite impressive.

Honestly, if I could have the perfect web browser for my use and my work, I'd happily pay $10/mo for it, forever - or at least until I retire. Why are pretty much all web browsers free, but don't cater to power user use cases like this? Hmm...

If you bothered to stick around until the end, I hope that explained one use case in a way that is understandable!

Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy hell, I thought I was bad for hitting 200-300. I didn't even know this was possible.

It's actually surprisingly stable and usable. Which may contribute to the problem ;-) Tabs only load once directly viewed, so a session restore opens pretty quickly and doesn't actually use all that much memory. After a time, as more tabs are visited (and yes, I really do try to shut some down with time), the session eventually gets less usable, though that can take many days (I've not tracked this). Moving and searc…

I found that Chrome destabilized and black-screened a lot when I had 1500+ tabs open, but Opera oddly enough did not. Opera seems to have slightly better memory management and background tab handling. (Puts them to sleep better.) That said, it does still take a very long time to reopen that many tabs. That's where stability comes in... you don't want to have to close and reopen your web browser throughout the day, if you can avoid it.

Opera does indeed have switch to tab, FYI - and open tab searching.

Re: Tab Unloading in Firefox 93

#250
post #198
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offload computations and rendering to the client

Which computations and what rendering? Very little money is saved from SSR vs CSR, rather the lower data transfer saves everyone money and time.

> Very little money is saved from SSR vs CSR

this seems counterintuitive.

SSR means most processing happens on big iron inside a dc, this has to be more efficient than each user buying a new machine every few years just to have that peak js-perf needed for the latest frameworks.

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